Greetings, oh wondrous rereaders of the Oathbringer! Welcome back to the discussion, as the winsome threesome tackle yet another Moash chapter full of sledge-pulling, fatalism, and a moment of sheer rebellion. Oh, but that’s after a fascinating chapter of Jasnah discussing Radiants and Desolations with her spren, Ivory.
Reminder: we’ll potentially be discussing spoilers for the ENTIRE NOVEL in each reread. There are very minor spoilers for Sixth of the Dusk in the Epigraph speculation, and that’s it for Cosmere spoilers. But if you haven’t read ALL of Oathbringer, best to wait to join us until you’re done.
Chapter Recap
WHO: Jasnah; Moash
WHERE: Jasnah’s quarters in Urithiru; the road from Revolar to Kholinar
WHEN: 1174.1.8.2 (one day after Skar’s chapter), 1174.1.7.1 through 1.10.1 (starting nine days after the last Moash chapter, and ending the same day that Kaladin’s team arrives outside Kholinar)
Chapter 47: Jasnah reviews the transcription of the Herald-madman’s ramblings, discussing its contents with her spren Ivory. The two spend most of the (highly informative) chapter worrying over how much they don’t know, how to find the Heralds, how to deal with Shallan, and how to prepare for the coming conflict.
Chapter 48: Moash pulls a sledge along a familiar route, as he travels with the Voidbringers from Revolar to Kholinar. It’s not such a bad life, compared to carrying bridges, and the Voidbringers seem to be pretty decent as slave-owners go, with one exception: the group of parshmen who had brought a “false god” with them are treated brutally.
The Singing Storm
Title: So Much Is Lost; Rhythm of Work
So much is lost between Returns.
AA: The title comes from Talenel’s ramblings, as read by Jasnah. It applies as much to Jasnah as Taln, though, because this time much was gained since the previous Desolation. (Well, okay, a lot of knowledge was lost, but more in terms of history than technology; in the latter, much has been gained.) But Jasnah…
In one moment, all of her expertise had been wiped away. “We’ve lost so much time,” she said.
“Yes. We must catch what we have lost, Jasnah. We must.”
She not only lost her notes—she’s retrieving those now—but she lost her lead in research, and much of what she’d learned may turn out to be irrelevant. Mostly, she’s lost time.
Moash fell into the sturdy rhythm of the work. It wasn’t long until he was sweating.
The reason for this choice is fairly clear, as Moash moves toward greater sympathy with the Parsh and away from humans. He can’t hear the rhythms, of course, but the title is clearly reflective of them.
Heralds
Talenelat (Dependable, Resourceful—Stonewards), Battah (Wise, Careful—Elsecallers); Kalak (Resolute, Builder—Willshapers)
AA: Okay, not much debate needed for Jasnah’s Heralds! Our favorite Elsecaller is reading the transcription of Talenel’s ramblings. Need we say more? As for Moash’s chapter, my first reaction is, “Well, it had to be someone, I guess.” I don’t read him as particularly resolute, nor as terribly constructive. I suppose it could be due to his admiration for the efficiency and effectiveness of the Voidbringers’ organization and logistics. Aubree, you must have a better idea.
AP: He does also have a moment here where he stands up for others, in interceding for the parshmen that Kaladin helped.
Icon
Shadesmar; Not Bridge Four
AA: This is the first time in Oathbringer that we’ve seen the Shadesmar icon. Originally, this one was on all the Shallan chapters—up until she drew Pattern into the Physical realm. Since then, we’ve seen it on Jasnah’s rare chapters, so we don’t really know whether this will be specific to Jasnah from here on, or whether it will be used for developing Radiants in general. I guess we’ll have to RAFO.
L: I wouldn’t say that Jasnah is developing, though. She’s farther along than most of the others we’ve seen POVs from, so if that were the case, all of the budding Radiant characters should have this icon. I think it’s more likely to do with the fact that she’s an Elsecaller and more closely linked to Shadesmar than the others.
AA: No, Jasnah never was a “developing Radiant” on screen except in the WoR Prologue. But we have to identify it somehow, and it was used for Shallan up until it was revealed that she was a Lightweaver. At that point she got her distinct Pattern icon, and now Jasnah has the Shadesmar one. Quite true, though, that the Shadesmar icon suits an Elsecaller better than anyone else!
AA: “Not Bridge Four,” of course, denotes another chapter in the Moash spiral.
Epigraph
Indeed, we admire his initiative. Perhaps if you had approached the correct one of us with your plea, it would have found favorable audience.
But we stand in the sea, pleased with our domains. Leave us alone.
L: In the sea?
AA: I think this might be the reason I associate the correspondent with First of the Sun—because that story all takes place on an archipelago called the Pantheon. I dunno, though.
Stories & Songs
Ishar keeps talking about a way to keep information from being lost following Desolations. And you have discovered something unexpected. We will use that. Surgebinders to act as guardians… Knights…
L: Something unexpected? And who’s the “you” in this letter?
AA: I assume he’s referring to the Radiants, and “you” is just whoever in this time frame happens to be listening, but it’s highly cryptic. His entire ramble mixes up time frames and events so that it’s almost impossible to really understand—except that he’s talking about the way things have been in the past, through a mind that’s almost destroyed by 4500 years of torment.
AP: So I know this one was an extra long time period before Desolations. Do we know how long the gap “usually” was? It’s pretty amazing that Taln held out for that long.
AA: The first gaps were, according to the Stormfather, a matter of hundreds of years. By the end, they were more often less than ten years, and the last one was less than a year. Hundreds of years is pretty impressive for them all, even though at least part of that would have been while they were effectively hiding. Once found, the torture began. It seems that the ancestor-souls got better at finding them (or they got worse at hiding), and it’s only reasonable that someone would break sooner each time. Except Taln. Still, 4500 years? I mean, maybe with just one person it was possible to hide longer, but … wow.
“We must search Shadesmar… In this world, men can hide easily—but their souls shine out to us on the other side.”
“Unless someone knows how to hide them.”
AA: So… does this apply to everyone, or only to Cognitive Shadows? Are Cognitive Shadows easier to distinguish from ordinary living people when viewed from within Shadesmar? I’m a little disappointed that this notion was not pursued… unless it was, and we just haven’t seen it yet.
AP: I got the sense that this is how the Fused found Jezrien at the end of the book. But I may be totally off on that. I also think that the ability to hide the reflection of souls in Shadesmar is going to come in handy later on in the series.
AA: Oh, duh. I never thought of that, and it makes way more sense. They had control of the area around Kholinar in both Physical and Cognitive realms, so of course they would have found him that way. Okay, now I’m sad again.
What had they done with that victory? They’d set up false gods in the form of men whose eyes reminded them of the Knights Radiant.
AA: Well, a history scholar he ain’t… but conflating things from his perspective, and leaving out about 3000 years, I suppose he’s not entirely wrong. A bit hyperbolic, I think, because no one sees the lighteyes as gods, but it’s a fascinating little juxtaposition when the the parshwoman later refers to an actual Knight Radiant as a false god.
AP: Hyperbolic in the sense that the lighteyes aren’t gods. But not overmuch given the deep social divide and effective caste system.
The life of men over the centuries had been nothing more than a long string of murders, wars, and thefts.
L: Interesting that he seems to assume that the Voidbringers would be any better. My father once told me something that really stuck with me—he told me that every thirty or so years, someone would start a war. I think about that fact a lot, and this revelation Moash has about humanity seems to indicate that things aren’t much different on Roshar than on Earth in that regard.
AP: So we, as readers, know that they aren’t better, but with everything that Moash has been through, I’m not at all surprised that he’s ready to jump from Team Human. I don’t think that in Alethkar there is even a 30 year period of peace. The Thrill in Alethkar was really messing with stuff. All he knows is that Team Voidbringer treated him better as a slave than he was treated by the humans. He’s got proper equipment, a reasonable pace to keep up, food, and rest breaks.
L: Yeah, especially given his time as a bridgeman.
The Voidbringers seemed so much better than the human armies he’d been a part of… except for one thing.
There was a group of parshman slaves.
L: Oh hey there, parshmen that Kaladin helped! Sucks to see them being treated like this, though. Poor Kal would be heartbroken if he knew.
AA: Especially since he would see it as his fault. Which it sort of is, though he certainly wasn’t responsible for the way they’re being treated. It’s another one of those cases where he had all the good intentions when he helped them, but someone else has to bear the consequences of his decision to leave. The manner in which he left certainly didn’t help.
AP: I’m really glad they showed up again. I also think it’s interesting that Kaladin couldn’t ultimately help them, but Moash does. Quite a reversal in roles here, and gives possible hints to people that think Moash may end up as a Dark Windrunner.
AA: Unfortunately, mostly it seems that Moash was able to get them a position in the invading army, so they all died in the clash with Kaladin’s Wall Guard squad. But that’s a sad story for another day.
Relationships & Romances
AA: I’ll just put in a quick note here that Moash had an uncle who was a caravaneer, who was apparently his first mentor in that society. I forgot to mention last week that Moash says his grandparents had encouraged him to join the caravans, “to give him something productive to do.” That’s loaded with a variety of interpretations…
Buy the Book
Legion: The Many Lives of Stephen Leeds
Bruised & Broken
Jasnah had rejected the nice rooms with balconies on the rim of Urithiru; those had such an obvious entrance for assassins or spies.
L: I’d like to take a moment here to talk about Jasnah’s paranoia—whether founded or not, it’s an interesting aspect to her personality. There are a lot of theories about her past, and what kind of violent trauma she may have suffered. Is it just the illness she mentions, or was there more? Many people think she suffered a rape or other physical assault, and moments like this really cause me to side with that possibility. Granted, we’ve already seen one failed on-screen assassination attempt, so this could feasibly be a result of that and not some murky historical event we’ve yet to see. But… I keep thinking back to that moment in the alleyway in WoK, when she baited and annihilated those thieves. This… is not the action of a woman whose mind is entirely unbroken. Something happened to her. As to what exactly it was? We probably won’t find out until her flashback book.
AA: I agree with everything you say. I also have to add that Jasnah had a close relationship with assassins, and likely learned from them a lot about their methods. She thinks in terms of politics and intrigue, so it’s pretty natural to protect herself against others like herself!
“You are like a spren. You think by facts. You change not on simple whims. … Compared to other humans, you are practically a stone!”
She sighed, standing up and brushing past him, returning to her writing desk.
“Jasnah?” Ivory asked. “Am I… in error?”
“I am not so much a stone as you think, Ivory. Sometimes I wish I were.”
L: Poor Jasnah. Viewed by everyone as being this unfeeling rock driven only by intellect. I can’t wait to learn more about her.
AA: I find it … odd? that even her spren sees her that way. I guess we’ve already decided that your spren can’t read your mind, but I keep expecting them to have more insight than humans.
Something stirred deep within her. Glimmers of memory from a dark room, screaming her voice ragged. A childhood illness nobody else seemed to remember, for all it had done to her.
L: An illness no one seems to remember? That’s really, really interesting. Sounds like some odd magic is afoot here, something like Dalinar’s pruning.
AA: It’s driving me crazy, frankly. Do they not remember it because it didn’t seem all that significant to the adults? Just a typical childhood illness, though she reacted badly to the treatment? Something that, right or wrong, she somehow blamed on the adults? Or was it something far deeper that no one else will talk about?
It had taught her that people she loved could still hurt her.
L: The plot (and mystery) thickens further.
AA: Which people, Jasnah?? If it was her parents, that really bothers me. But we know so little of her childhood, and who she would have loved and trusted at that time.
What happened at the Shattered Plains wasn’t my fault, he thought as he hauled the sledge. I was pushed into it. I can’t be blamed.
L: Oh FFS.
AA: ^^ This. Also this:
Moash had failed Kaladin and the others—but that was merely how men were in this debased age. He couldn’t be blamed. He was a product of his culture.
AA: That’s a load of chull dung.
There was a lot of great discussion last week about Moash—his personality issues, his feeling of not belonging, his inability to demonstrate loyalty, and where that all might have come from. I could relate to some of the points made—at least enough to sort of comprehend why he might have developed as he did. The picture of a guy who never fits in and can’t quite figure out what to do about it … helps. More, I can relate to the idea of not letting anyone see that I want to belong if I feel I can’t; I’d rather have people think I’m arrogant than that I’m embarrassed. (Well, not so much any more, but when I was his age, yeah.) So that gives me a handle on Moash as a believable person, in a way that all the arguments about social injustice fail to do.
That said, I still cannot accept the fatalism that says, “I’m just a product of my culture and I couldn’t have done anything else.” If that were true, no one else could ever be loyal or trustworthy either, dude. Of course, that’s deliberate on the part of the author. We see other characters who could easily claim the same rationale, and they don’t. I don’t think it’s any coincidence, for example, that Kaladin and Moash were both very high nahn, they both see injustice in society, and then they react very differently to it.
AP: This is where I see Moash at his most broken, and where he does try to abdicate responsibility/blame for his actions, which he wasn’t doing in the last chapter. His reaction to his revelation that most humans are awful is to try to lose himself in difficult work. It’s a believable reaction, I’ve known plenty of people who just want to tire themselves out instead of thinking about things that are difficult. But it’s a bad reaction, and a complete reversal to “it’s my fault that I failed Bridge Four” that we had in the last chapter. This also is where he has the visible cracks that begin to let Odium’s influence in, which we see in his next few chapters.
The whipping began. The cries, the harsh crack of leather on skin.
That’s enough.
L: I remember reading this for the first time and being really happy to see this moment. Not the whipping, of course—the fact that Moash FINALLY stepped forward to do the right thing.
AP: I agree, and it’s the beginning of a new arc for him, toward Team Voidbringer.
“Stop it!” he snapped, then shoved the other overseer aside. “Don’t you see what you’re doing? You’re becoming like us.”
The two overseers stared at him, dumbfounded.
“You can’t abuse each other,” Moash said. “You can’t.”
AA: Because if you show me that you’re just as bad as the humans are, you might destroy all my rationalizations. I say this, of course, because like Lyndsey, I thought maybe this would be a turning point, but it really isn’t much of one. Correction: It isn’t the kind of turning point I hoped it would be! As we see him later, that whole “do the right thing” isn’t his thing; he continues with his “someone else made me do it” gig, except now it’s Team Voidbringer giving the orders.
AP: What is interesting though is that they listened to him, and did stop whipping the parshmen. Because he showed his passion. The different motivators here are in stark contrast Team Human with it’s Honor/Obligation/Vengeance and Team Voidbringer with Passion/Do What Feels Right. Both of these are broken systems, but Moash is actually equipped to navigate the latter.
Diagrams & Dastardly Designs
“We must tell the others what we learned from Wit, Ivory. Eventually, this secret must be known.”
“Jasnah, no. It would be the end. Another Recreance.”
AA: It was so frustrating to read this and get no more discussion! Jasnah knows what caused the Recreance, and she won’t tell us?! I wonder, though, whether she knows the whole thing, just like I wonder whether the revelation of the Eila Stele is the whole story. For that matter, I wonder if the Knights Radiant who abandoned their oaths knew the whole story!
AP: There’s always another secret! I think the truth is much more complicated than either side would like to believe.
AA: I’m counting on that!
Places & Peoples
There, miles and miles away, a scribe was carefully rewriting each page of her notes, which she had originally sent to them to keep safe.
AA: Now there’s a serious dedication to backing up your files! I wonder whether she knows these scribes personally, to trust them with her most guarded information, or if it’s just that this particular facility is known for its careful security. It seems like a huge risk for someone like Jasnah to take; on the other hand, she would consider the possibility of losing her notebooks and take steps to prevent complete loss. I find myself really hoping that there’s still good information in there that will be needed; it would be a shame for all that work to be wasted.
She was a young parshwoman with dark red skin, marbled only slightly with white. She wore a havah. Though it didn’t seem like marching clothing, she wore it well. She had even done up the sleeve to cover her safehand.
AA: A good little Vorin Voidbringer? Heh. I doubt she really cares about covering her safehand; that’s just the way this dress is worn, and that’s what she’s grown up with. But the irony was too good not to remark on it.
AP: I thought it was a nice remark on how the former parshmen slaves took on the outward trappings of power that their oppressors wore. The havah is what lighteyed human women wore, and the parshwoman has taken that marker of status and used it to signal that she is important to the army as an Overseer. We know that she’s not, the Fused are the ones in charge, but wearing the havah makes her feel like she is in charge.
“They harbored a false god. Brought him into the very center among us.”
“The Almighty?”
She laughed. “A real false god, a living one. Like our living gods.”
AA: I find it fascinating that they refer to the Knights Radiant as “real false gods.” Apparently in their lexicon, someone who can use the surges is by definition a god, whatever their source of power. “True” and “False” are defined by the source—Odium, or Honor/Cultivation. This is making my brain hurt a little, given what we know—and don’t know—of their history.
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The Ruin of Kings
Weighty Words
“All ten orders are again,” Ivory said from behind her.
…
“Ten orders,” Jasnah said. “All ended in death.”
“All but one,” Ivory agreed. “They lived in death instead.”
L: Which order is Ivory referring to here? The Skybreakers?
AA: Presumably. I wonder if he sees them as having abandoned the spirit of their Ideals, though they follow the letter. It could also be that he sees their hiding from the rest of humanity as a form of death, since the Knights Radiant were formed to protect humanity and keep knowledge alive between desolations.
Meaningful/Moronic/Mundane Motivations
Moash found himself enjoying these weeks hiking and pulling his sledge. It exhausted his body, quieted his thoughts, and let him fall into a calm rhythm. This was certainly far better than his days as a lighteyes, when he’d worried incessantly about the plot against the king.
It felt good to just be told what to do.
AA: At least he’s consistent. If you want no responsibility for your actions, just following orders is a whole lot easier than actual freedom. Frustrating as I find this attitude, I can understand it. The sudden jump from second (or third, maybe) nahn to fourth dahn would be unsettling; when you’ve been walking around with a chip on your shoulder for years, and all of a sudden you’re one of the hated nobles, what do you do? Sometimes it’s just easier to be a little cog in a big machine, than to try to steer the machine.
AP: Yeah, I mentioned this above, but this is where I see Moash at his lowest, abdicating his responsibility. It doesn’t last, because he does pick a team and start advancing within Team Voidbringer. But here, he can try to lose himself in the work.
A Scrupulous Study of Spren
She leaned back in her seat and Ivory—full-sized, like a human—stepped over to the table. Hands clasped behind his back, he wore his usual stiff formal suit. The spren’s coloring was jet black, both clothing and features, though something prismatic swirled on his skin. It was as if pure black marble had been coated in oil that glistened with hidden color.
L: This is such a cool description. Also, interesting that he’s full-sized. We’ve seen Syl do this once before as well, but the spren usually seem to prefer being smaller. I wonder if it takes more energy to manifest a larger size like this in this plane?
He could change his size at will, but not his shape, except when fully in this realm, manifesting as a Shardblade.
L: Neat that he can’t change his form like Syl can.
AA: One of these days, I’m going to research this phenomenon…
“The ancient ones,” Ivory said again, nodding. He didn’t often speak of the spren who had been lost during the Recreance. Ivory and his fellows had been mere children—well, the spren equivalent—at the time. They spent years, centuries, with no older spren to nurture and guide them.
L: From what we see in Shadesmar later on, those spren are still around—at least, some of them are. Did some die off completely, or are they all wandering around lost like Maya was?
AA: This is yet another of those ongoing mysteries. Presumably, any that still exist as bonded Shardblades in the Physical realm are still wandering around Shadesmar when unsummoned… but where are they all?
“One does not war with Cryptics, as one does with honorspren. Cryptics have but one city, and do not wish to rule more. Only to listen.”
L: Spren culture/society fascinates me. I find it amusing how all the others seem to hate honorspren so much, when the one that we’ve seen and gotten to know is so sweet and charming.
AA: I expect we’ll be talking about that a lot more in a few months! The honorspren we meet in Shadesmar aren’t quite as sweet as Syl!
AP: It’s important to note that the honorspren are the ones who are causing wars. As much of a good quality as we think of honor, or being an honorable person, the flip side is that there are a lot of people (and apparently a lot of spren) that will turn violent quickly due to perceived slights against their honor. The whole Alethi culture is based on honor/vengeance, and the war on the Shattered Plains is a war of honor.
L: Reminds me of the Klingons!
The difference between a higher spren like him and a common emotion spren was in their ability to decide how to act.
L: So autonomy/sapience?
AA: I’d say so, yes. There are other differences, I’m sure, but in the current context, this is the important part. I do wonder how they came about in the first place, though.
Quality Quotations
Kalak will teach you to cast bronze, if you have forgotten this…. Vedel can train your surgeons, and Jezrien will teach you leadership…. I will train your soldiers.
* * *
“We are naught before him, Jasnah. He would destroy my kind and yours.”
* * *
He had taken the name Ivory as a symbol of defiance. He was not what his kin said he was, and would not suffer what fate proclaimed.
* * *
Compared to bridge duty, this was a paradise.
* * *
Though strict and unforgiving, the Voidbringers understood that to work hard, slaves needed good rations and plenty of time at night to rest.
* * *
Everything was converging on the capital.
Okay, we’re done for now. Whew! Next week we’ll give Aubree a week off (if she wants it) while we flash back with Dalinar in Chapter 49. It’s a very special event in his life. Meanwhile, join us in the comments for more excellent discussion!
Alice is enjoying Indian summer in western Washington. The Weeping will arrive soon enough, but for now, it’s lovely out thataway.
Lyndsey is still waiting on news on the Yuri!!! On Ice movie. If you’re an aspiring author, a cosplayer, or just like geeky content, follow her work on Facebook or her website.
Aubree goes all the way up to eleven.
Not sure if anyone has borught this up before, but is there a connection between Bavadin and Bavland? ( region of jah keved)
also, i vaguely recall some chapter or another with Navani(?) mention Jasnah’s strange madness. One of the flashbacks maybe?
Regarding the quote “But we stand in the sea, pleased with our domains. Leave us alone.”
We do have this WOB talkling about how one of the shard holders is an actual island…
Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]
Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, it is. That one is even closer associated with a Shard, the actual Investiture of the magic. Remember when I say Investiture, I mean matter, energy and magic. Sometimes the word Investiture just to the magic such as the Aviar and in that it is directly associated with one of the Shards
Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]
Which one?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium
Everyone in the room [PENDING REVIEW]
*Stunned silence*
Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]
Sorry, can you say that again?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Patji is a Shard of Adonalsium
Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]
Is that one of the Aviar?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
No that is the island
Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]
Island or islands?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
The island but Patji is one of the islands.
Yurisses [PENDING REVIEW]
It’s a Shard?!
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
Yes, big asterisk! But yes.
Aurimus [PENDING REVIEW]
Shard as in equal or Shard as in a mass of Investiture?
Brandon Sanderson [PENDING REVIEW]
As in one of the 16 Shards of Adonalsium is represented and involved in First of the Sun. In fact, one of the letters references First of the Sun in this *Indicates to Oathbringer*
Sorry, I probably killed some theories on that one.
Overlord Jebus [PENDING REVIEW]
Yup, but by doing that you’ve confirmed some as well so it’s fine!
@1 slaybalj
Yes I do recall the scene you are referring to. Navani was speaking to Dalinar if I recall correctly. I will try to pull it up later
Another tidbit of Jasnah awesomeness! I feel with Jasnah she is the type of person who controls her emotions so firmly because they are so strong. This scene I feel supports my “Jasnah has schizophrenia or OCD” theory. She mentions her fear of losing her sanity. Of being unable to trust her mind. I think Jasnah acted erratic for a bit which concerned Gavilar and Navani. They sent her to spend time with the Ardents to work through this. She possibly met a kindly Ardent who she grew to trust only for them to then enact horrible archaic means of “treating” her. Our own history has horrendous stories of “treatments” in the medical field. Anything from electroshock therapy, to lobotomies, to leeches and bloodletting. This could have led a minor case of OCD, or schizophrenia to become full blown paranoia and mental breakdown. Over time Jasnah pulls herself together piece by piece by herself and exerts control over her “reality” with logic. This attracts Ivory and leads to his later bonding. The Ardents thinking their wonderful treatment worked release her to her family. Jasnah afraid of getting thrown back in, acts cured and speaks to no one of her trauma. Family thinks everything is all fine and hunky dory and never speak of it again. 90 percent of that is conjecture, but I really hope I am right, and can’t wait to find out!
Ivory again confirms how different spren cultures act, as well as how individualistic each spren can be.
Brandon confirmed Ivory was speaking of the Skybreakers. WoB below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/176-oathbringer-chicago-signing/#e8470
I find it very interesting how once Moash finds a scape goat to funnel his self denial and hatred, he leaps to it with a gusto like a drowning man for a life preserver. It is very much a commentary on an aspect of the human condition and cognitive dissonance. Protect the mind even if it means creating delusions to validate it.
On Jasnah’s past: I think we are lacking sufficient information to draw a clear picture. Jasnah speaks of an illness everyone seems to have forgotten, of a dark room where she was left screaming and of feeling betrayed by those she loved the most.
However, within the rest of the narrative, we able to witness how much Jasnah cares about her family: she speaks of her guilt towards her father’s death. Clearly, she loves her mother, her uncle and Renarin. She seems not to care much for both Adolin and Elhokar, but neither does she ressent them in any ways we could see. Hence, the glimpses we got of her past does not seem to work with the relationships she did develop with her close family members.
Who betrayed her? It can’t have been her family, her relationship with it is too healthy, normal and positive. Her first ward? We know there is an untold story here which doesn’t end well….
Which illness? Dalinar refers to it as “Jasnah’s lunacy” within his next flashback. This gives credence to BenW argumentation about Jasnah potentially being on the spectrum. Was it really dire or was it an event which marked Jasnah more than her entourage? This could fit with autism, she could have amplified a situation others saw very differently…
And the dark room… Was she put in there because those who did it wish her harm or was she put in there because she was out-of-control?
So much we do not know.
On Moash: Yes, he is a very plausible character. The desire to belong can be a powerful motivator and does not always lead to positive reactions.
Why would I bother to let them know I want to belong? If I do, once they kick me out for good (because they will, it is only a question of time), then I will have made myself look like a fool for thinking, even if for a moment, I stood at chance at fitting in with them. Better to let them think I didn’t want it in the first place.
Better to protect myself because no one else certainly will. Better to never let them know how much they hurt me. Better to never let them have the satisfaction of knowing they hurt me. Better to pretend I don’t care, to ignore them. Isn’t what everyone always says anyway? Ignore those you aren’t nice to you? Do not let them see they got to you? So what’s wrong with doing exactly that? Ah it’s a lie? No one needs to know…
I strongly relate to this and I can’t say if this is exactly what goes on in Moash’s head, but I would find it a very plausible backstory for his character. Not everyone reacts falling at finding a place to belong in the same manner.
And yes, it is sometimes easier to pass out for arrogance, condescending, snotty than really embarassed. Better to broadcast negative emotions than to admit failure. Speaking of which, it is better to blame society, especially when it is so corrupt it did have a role to play, then to admit you have failed.
Admitting failure is difficult. I can see Moash struggling with this. I started up by admitting his responsiblities, but once he sees the Fused as better leaders than the corrupted lighteyes, he starts to blame society. I can understand why Moash does so. It gives him hope, hope the new world will be better than the old one. Better throw himself in within team Fused if they are to built a world he currently perceives as “more fair”. Whereas the alternative, keeping on blaming himself won’t have any results he can foresee.
I think it is easy to look at Moash and say: “What a piece of crem, can’t he do like everyone else, accept it was all his fault, move on and attract a spren”. From Moash’s perspective, there is no moving on, all there is are the Fused and they’ve been fair to him, they seem to have want to accept him within their new world.
I can’t blame Moash for making his decisions here even if I know they are the wrong ones. Moash, him, doesn’t know this, not yet.
This being said, I loved the fact Moash stepping with the brutalized Parshendis didn’t mark a turning point nor led him to become a Windrunner… It would have made his narrative too similar to Kaladin’s: what we got instead is more interesting than yet another Windrunner, IMHO.
On the side notes, I think honor is over-rated… and dangerous when left alone to lead. I can see how the Honorsprens would have caused many wars. Too much of one thing is never a good thing.
And yeah, next week is baby Adolin, the momentarily dark to light transition in Dalinar’s character (which turns out being why Dalinar named his son after light, IMHO) and the beginning of how Dalinar started projecting on his son. I can’t wait.
It’s much easier to like Jasnah when you can see from her perspective. It’s much easier to hate Moash when you can see his. ;) Just kidding. Obviously seeing others perspectives makes it easier to understand them, even if it doesn’t make it less frustrating or painful -which is where Moash is for me. I agree with those who say that he is believable and reflects a common human reaction, but it is still hard to watch.
Put me in the camp that this “lunacy” is some sort of abuse that Jasnah suffered. My personal theory is that Gavilar and Amaram were involved in it. Gavilar perhaps just through knowledge; Amaram more directly.
Alice, as a place to start your deep dive to spren shapes and limits… it seems to me that there is a connection between spren on Cultivation’s end of the spectrum seeming to have interesting relationships to the cognitive realm and being able to manifest more strongly in the physical (Pattern can’t hide, Wyndle leaves behind temporary vine marks others can see) and seem to be more restricted in the forms they can take. Haven’t researched it enough, but that’s my impression.
We’ve seen at least two on screen assassination attempts on Jasnah. There was whatis-face with the bread and jam in Way of Kings, and there was the stabbing on the boat in Words of Radiance. Oathbringer is the only one so far where no one tries to assassinate Jasnah on screen.
Thayleneah city does not count, that was a full out battle with soldiers, not assassins.
@5 Whitespine
I agree, and I feel Sanderson did this intentionally. By seeing Jasnah primarily from everyone else’s perspective, it builds the mystery of her as a person. Then when we actually get to be in her head, the reality is so different as to be almost jarring, but also hits us emotionally that much greater. That is why I feel when we reach Renarin’s flashbacks we are going to be utterly blown away. How many times we just see stoic Renarin, when underneath there are so much hidden depths. We see hints of this with Jasnah. Everyone assumes everything is effortless for her, meanwhile Jasnah is in a near constant state of anxiety. I also love the consideration she gives Shallan. She is already trying to think of how to help her better when from the outside she seems only judgemental. There is a real sense of affection and love we can see that Jasnah has for Shallan that is quite endearing.
@6jweaver13
Good point. On top of that Jasnah mentions in the scene with Kabsal, that that is not the first time someone tried something like that on her so she has survived other prior assassination attempts.
Great job as usual, Alice/Lyndsey/Aubree!
@2 toothlessJoe: can you post a link to that WOB please?
@8, ladyrian
WOB
Although there is another WOB, that makes it a bit confusing: WOB #2
It seems that there was Adonalsium Investure on Sixth of the Dusk prior to Autonomy taking over it over, much like Honor/Cultivation did on Roshar.
Loved Jasnah’s chapter, but I find it immensely frustrating that she thinks that she didn’t learn anything of worth during her sojourn in Shadesmar. I mean, she is a first scholar in a long time who could have written about it. Also, Wit said in the epilogue that Jasnah bhearded the highspren in their den – how could no important information have come out of _that_? Shouldn’t she have learned about Skybreaker crusade against other Orders and their motivations for it? Shouldn’t information about spren geography and politics that she was bound to hear, provide possibly crucial insights into availoable courses of action for the Radiants? It doesn’t make sense to me that the only useful bits were told to her by Wit during their meeting.
Also, Jasnah isn’t paranoid _enough_ – shouldn’t her jaunt into the Cognitive have shown her how hostile spren could spy on anybody from the other side? Or even from this side? She needs to keep her Shadesmar-vision constantly engaged when discussing important issues which she wants to keep secret from the Odium cabal or other enemies!
Moash conveniently ignores here that not all humans have the same social structures as Alethi. Also, there is no gulf between low-dahn lighteyes and high-nahn darkeyes.
Amaram is the same age as Jasnah, isn’t he?
@10 Isilel
We do not know what information Jasnah (whether correctly or in error) chooses to keep to herself for reasons we also do not know. She kept the reason for the Recreance secret on the advice of Ivory. I think that was in error as Dalinar could have prepared for it better, but Jasnah is human after all and makes mistakes.
I will need to confirm, but I believe every instance we see Shallan peering into the cognitive realm involves her using stormlight. I believe the same stands for Jasnah. The only exception to this rule is when Dalinar pulls together the three realms. At this point in the story stormlight is scarce. Though Dalinar does say training his radiants is worth the cost, having the cognitive vision running constantly I think would drain their stores rapidly. It is a good idea though for her to do so during more sensitive conversations. Perhaps Jasnah already has, but said/did nothing because the only spren hanging around that was spying on them was Spark, who they thought was on their side.
I am not sure if Amaram’s and Jasnah’s age difference ever comes up if there is one.
@9 keyblazing: thanks! You are right, that 2nd WOB is confusing (though I admit there is a lot of the Cosmere that I do not have a good grasp on).
@10 Isilel that is a good point! I hope we get to see more of the other nations’ cultures and social structures.
I guess some of what Jasnah learned in Shadesmar could be inapplicable to the immediate circumstances? And when she initially arrived during the assassination attempt, she was not in a position to start making notes or learning valuable information.
“… between Returns.” Because the Heralds are Returned, a variation on the same theme as Nalthis’ Returned. (They don’t need to reanimate their own corpses, for one difference.)
Moash continues to be the anti-Kaladin, even rescuing the same people Kaladin rescued earlier. Notice that they’re two of the two main characters who value Parsh lives equally with human.
Jasnah having a service keep copies of her notebooks–surely you see this is one of Sanderson’s little jokes? It’s cloud storage!
“Apparently in their lexicon, someone who can use the surges is by definition a god, whatever their source of power.” On Scadrial’s Southern Continent all Allomancers are considered divine. More cross-Cosmere parallelism.
Her family “seems” to have forgotten Jasnah’s illness. I suspect they’re just avoiding talking about a period of insanity to avoid making her feel bad, they clearly haven’t really forgotten (since Dalinar and Navani talk about it).
On Jasnah’s information, another possibility is she made the wrong conclusions about what people knew
I sometimes find a conclusion that finds obvious to me seem like they should be obvious everyone. Only to have realized after the fact that it was NOT obvious. And have to explain myself. Now imagine if I lived in a culture with more rigid social rules like say Japan, where a lot of the communication is done by IMPLICATION. For me when I try to be subtle it tends to come out in one of two ways, subtle as a brick wall or so subtle it flys over everyones heads. I can be VERY wity. I do wordplay well, but Subtle? Subtlety, is not my thing. Not without time to plan ahead, anyways. And I could be wrong buy I have yet to see anything that indicated Jasnah being subtle on the fly.
I would also like to point out that the bulk of her political acumen seems to come from putting herself in other people’s position’s rather than any inherit skills as a judge of character. If you want evidence of this take a look about the notes of people’s characters in the warcamps she gave to Shallan and how many turned out to be wrong.
@@@@@5 I like your theory, ESPECIALLY about Amaram. If I remember correctly word of B is that the Amaram/Jasnah thing is “personal?”. I don’t remember the exact word used. But in any case I am betting the reason her judgment is so spot on with Amaram is personal experience
@@@@@
@13 Carl
Interesting tidbit regarding your comparison between Nalthis Returned and Roshar Heralds. Heralds do not require a steady influx of investiture to survive like the Returned do (needing a breath a week). WoB below
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/357-read-for-pixels-2018/#e10581
@14 BenW
Interesting thoughts. Though I will say her notes on the people in the warcamps for Shallan were out of date by quite some time. Couple that with the upset that occured on the shattered plains at the Tower, and political lines shifted rather quickly and dramatically. So for me it would make sense that her notes would be inaccurate and would not be a commentary on her skill in politics.
Kaladin’s failed attempt to help the parshmen is a parallel to Shallan’s later attempt to help the beggars.
Jasnah was probably attacked by Amaram. Since he pretends to be perfect nobody believed her when she tried to tell them.
Moash’s argument here reminds me of men who say it is men’s nature to be bad, therefore women must all be good.
If it’s the ardents living somewhere in the mountains who copy her notes it might be literally in clouds a lot of the time (of course the dampness wouldn’t be good for paper).
The notes are from before Jasnah met the spren in Shadesmar. If she learned new things there they aren’t in the notes, which are her research of the past years about old legends.
@16
Moash’s argument here reminds me of men who say it is men’s nature to be bad, therefore women must all be good.
I like your point here. Sometimes I feel like I can get so blinded by seeing all sides of a perspective I lose myself. Thank you for reminding me that for as much as I sympathize with Moash’s situation, that in the end I have a very good to say “fuck him!” as well, or at least “fuck Moash’s logic can someone hit him over the head with a clue bat!””
That being said I DO think that the current structures of Honor and ODium need to be torn down and rebuilt. My guess is that is what is going on here. The first 5 books will focus on there tearing down and the next five books will focus on their rebuilding into something more positive.
“”Unity and Passion perhaps?””
Given the reference by Dalinar of Jashnas “lunacy” it may be that the family has forgotten the illness to pretend there was never an issue. Mental illness (lunacy) would be something that Alethi society probably views as weakness in a family line. it would certainly be something no one would talk about. Like having a baby out of wedlock the family takes an active forgetfullness of the incident. That sort of attitude would also increase whatever level of shame and hurt Jashna would feel about it making her more aloof and less emotional.
Another good reread.
In the section describing Ivory, you have written that his suit is “stuff” instead of “stiff.”
Moash’s attitude of passing off blame is a major theme of this book, for lots of characters. It is the chant Shallan hears when approaching the revelers in Kholinar, it’s what young Dalinar tells himself when attacking the Rift, or broken Dalinar who’s drinking himself to death, and it’s what Odium tried to convince Dalinar of at the end. The problem with Moash is that he accepts it, and therefore gives in to Odium. I can empathize with how he got there, but he seems far gone to me. His description when he kills Elokhar, “gloom seemed to cling to Moash”, makes me think he’s more likely headed to be Odium’s champion, than to have a redemption.
@19 – Fixed, thanks!
Another week of great chapters (what week isn’t? This is Oathbringer). I love seek Jasnah with Ivory. I love seeing Jasnah ‘downloading’ her info from Tashikk via spanreed (though I thought those requires more supervision in re-inking than she seems to be giving them). As for having all her notes outdated… while that is partially true, having the references in them to either back up her argument or to refute by her own/others current observations would still make them invaluable. (I live with a professor; lose his data/notes and he might actually die.) As for her conversation… is what Wit told her the same thing they learn from the Stelae? Or is it different? I know we don’t have the whole story there yet; there is always another secret. Also of note to me is Ivory’s comment-all 10 orders are refounded already. Who are these radiant? We see some in the end of OB, but idk of all those have sworn oaths at this point yet.
As for Moash… less responsibility than last chapter/week, even though he helped some of Kaladin’s Parsh friends. His ‘it isn’t my fault, ____ made me do it’ or whatever really grates on me. I tell my kids all the time, you are responsible for how you act, no matter what other people are doing. Evidently Moash missed that lesson. I know this is intentional to lead him to person he is going to become, but it’s infuriating to me
@22 Joyspren
So the radiants and orders we know for sure
Kaladin Windrunner
Shallan Lightweaver
Jasnah Elsecaller
Dalinar Bondsmith
Renarin Truthwatcher
Szeth Skybreaker
Lift Edgedancer
Malata Releaser
Venli Willshaper (heavily hinted/theorized)
The only order that seems to be a question mark at the moment is Stonewards. Perhaps we will meet one in book 4!
This ties really nicely into Adolin’s bond with Maya in this book. Alethi fight duels to resolve matters of honor. Presumably, the person who wins the duel is therefore the one who gains honor (or has honor proven, or increased). Since Adolin is the champion duelist, he therefore can be considered the Alethi who has gathered the most honor to himself.
Adolin, however, shares that honor with his blade during his pre-duel meditations and thanking it/her afterwards.
Could it be that the abstract concept of honor thereby helps attract/build small particles of Honor in the blade, making it possible for Maya to slowly regain her sense of self/consciousness?
I also want to point out the concept of external honor vs internal honor hasn’t been touched on enough. There is a difference between the two. And I think it’s important to look at how the oaths of the different orders play with the differnt concepts of honor.
Does anyone need me to define the differnce for them?
This week’s reread highlights yet another difference between Kaladin and Moash (who I will always think of as “Worm-Eater” now). Kaladin tried to help the parsh that he befriended; when he later faced them in battle, it grieved his heart to fight them to the point where he was non-functional. Moash also helped them, then while they were dying in the battle he led them to, his only thought was “Kill Elhokar!” – he didn’t care one whit about Sah or Khen or the others. I disagree that chapter 48 “is where he has the visible cracks that begin to let Odium’s influence in:” Odium is Hatred, and Moash has been seething with hatred almost every minute since we met him.
Alice: I did not get that possible deeper meaning of the title to Chapter 48. I thought it meant that Moash is doing work that he realizes is not as bad as other work he more recently did (i.e. his life as a Bridgeman and whatever he did between his time as a caravanner and a Bridgeman) and is now getting back into a comfortable routine. I never made the connection to how Parsh think and use rhythms.
For all Moash likes to complain about his lot in life, I see that he has a fondness for doing things that Moash sees as non-complicated. By non-complicated, I mean that it is stuff he can do practically on autopilot and does not have to challenge himself mentally. This was one of the reasons he sought physical labor and why he was so content to use the pick-axe at the end of OB (after the Fused and Regals took Kholinar). I also think that while he was a caravanner way-back-when, Moash probably hated it. He strikes me as the type of person who complains about what he currently does. When he moves onto something else, he fools himself into thinking that he actually liked what he used to do – the very thing he complained about when he was actually doing that very thing.
Alice: technically speaking, not all of the Parsh that Kaladin/Moash helped died. A few of them survived, including Khen.
Re Moash’s belief that “I’m just a product of my culture and I couldn’t have done anything else” is akin to how some men (not me, I want to make perfectly clear) rationalize why it is ok that they always cheat in a relationship – men are dogs, and cheating is something inbred in men, so my woman should just accept it.
Whatever the total story is (whether it is what we the reader and the rest of the in world characters will learn later in OB – that the humans were the original bringers of the Void) or something further yet to be revealed, I think that Jasnah knows the entire truth at this point. I think Wit/Hoid is playing the long game. But I do not think that means he did not tell Jasnah the whole truth about this point. I do not believe Wit had a reason to tell her half truths about this subject.
Also, I make a distinction between bringers of the void and Voidbringers. The humans brought the Void (i.e. Odium). Yet over time, what the Voidbringers have come to be for life on Roshar are the Parsh who have succumbed to embrace Odium and the Fused (those who are the Parsh Gods the Listener songs mentioned). I think this distinction will become important in later books. I do not have any textual belief to support my theory. I just believe it to be the case.
Lyndsey: I think the spren of Ivory’s generation view the spren who suffered the effects of the Recreance as the same as if they died like a human were to die.
Gepeto @@.-@: I did not read anything that Jasnah says or does that indicate she does not care much for Adolin or Elhokar. I am not sure what text lead you to this conclusion. Just because we do not have a scene where she expresses love or affection for either person, does not mean she does not. There may not have been the circumstances. She was in the middle of a battle when may have learned that her brother died. As we see in this chapter, she can be single minded when she wants to be. She may have had the same hard time killing either Elhokar or Adolin if Jasnah felt she had to kill them (as she thought she had to do with Renarin). I thought she was complentary of Adolin when she learned that he and Renarin took it upon themselves to destroy the Thunderclast. I guess to each their own.
Gepeto @@.-@. I like your take on Moash’s character. I may not agree with all of it, but even the parts I did not agree with are well thought out.
BenW @14. I disagree. I agree with Scath @15. IMO, the reason that Jasnah’s information about the Highprinces was wrong was because it was outdated; not because she made wrong assessments. It did not take into account the new 4 way power struggle: Dalinar, Sadeas, Sebarial (who was playing a game nobody saw) and all the rest of the Highprinces trying to be not on either Dalinar or Sadeas’ side. I think many of her character assessments of the individual Highprinces were accurate.
Scath @23. Taln himself is the Stonewards.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
I’m thinking her notes on Urithiru could still be useful. Any hints about how the city was run would help point them in the right direction. She had a notebook full of notes on the place.
At the risk of applying sledgehammer to deceased equines, another Moash chapter in which I rail about betrayal. Only this isn’t so much about Moash and more about how reader expectations affect the impact in later scenes. Because this is the scene when I thought Moash might make a turn around. Brandon showed us scenes just like this with other characters, scenes where a character doesn’t have everything figured out but still acts to take a stand, to take steps towards the light. There was a reasonable expectation of Moash digging himself out of the morass he finds himself in. This scene is what makes the Elkohar murder later on hurt so much. An excellent piece of writing achieved by subverting expectations.TL:DR: Moash is the worst.
Jasnah and cloud storage for the win. I also like the way Jasnah’s internal dialogue presents a much different picture of her than the face she shows to the world. It makes the sparing of Renarin later on both plausible and believable. Without this scene I’m not sure anyone would have bought her refusal to slay her cuz. We needed this in the narrative.
@AndrewHB: Taln is not a Stoneward, if you believe Nale. Nale says he is the only Herald to join “his” Radiant Order. Taln would just have the same Surges as a Stoneward, if he had his Honorblade, which he doesn’t.
@14: I like this explanation and I find it correlates well with the narrative. Jasnah’s notes weren’t just outdated, her evaluation of the various Highprinces personalities seemed to have been wrong as well. She totally misunderstood Sebrarial for instance. Five minutes after stepping into the council’s room, Shallan makes a better analysis of the political currents at play and of the various Highprinces interests. While she does make a bold move in coercing Sebrarial to take her in, she does so because her quick evaluation of his character indicate he might actually take the bait. And she was right, he did take it.
I also think it makes sense for an individual like Jasnah, based on what we have observed from her so far, to have devised a rational way to evaluate other people which relies on facts and not impressions. I don’t know how to phrase it, but most people will have an innate sense of other people’s personalities just by observing them, just by talking to them. Most people will catch the non-verbal cues and will file them as information without needing to make an effort. I do picture Jasnah as someone who needs to make an effort, as someone who can’t readily do this, hence she relies on her rational reading of the situation.
It also shows, later in OB, when she tries to give a lesson to Shallan at a most inappropriate time. She berates herself for not “having realized now was not the right moment”. I think she can’t read those situations well… and it goes hand in hand with her difficulty with empathy. She lacks it because, more often than not, she can’t see how other people are emotionally responding to her.
If this interpretation is correct, then it puts a lot of credence on Jasnah being on the spectrum too. It also implies she must have known about Amaram’s double-faced attitude, this isn’t she could have guessed like Adolin, she’d need to have experienced it.
@18: Then how do you explain Renarin? No one is hiding Renarin nor trying to cover up his sickness. I do not see why they would have treated any potential sickness in Jasnah any differently. I now think autism seems like a strong contender for this “lunacy” (what kind of sickness would we call a lunacy if not autism?), a behavior out of the ordinary, but not traceable to any physical illness unlike Renarin who’s also unhealthy on top of being autistic.
@24: Maya is a Cultivationspren and, as such, has very little of Honor in her. I doubt “honor” Adolin may have gathered dueling counts for much in her revival. I do however think Maya is not a Gardener like Wyndle, but another kind of Cultivationspren, one who actually wants to fight the bad creatures.
@27: I did not read anything which suggests she does a relationship with them. So far, the narrative has highlighted her relationship with her father, with her mother, with her uncle and with Renarin. All of which are very positive. With her brother, readers have long since noted a distance: clearly they aren’t close (I think WoB also confirms this distance did exist which isn’t to say Jasnah wants harm to come down on her brother). With Adolin, well, there is just nothing on both sides which makes me think whatever relationship they have, it is practically none-existent.
By this, I do not mean to say Jasnah would kill either Adolin/Elhokar is it comes down to it, I don’t think she will, but I have observed she did not seem particularly close to them. In other words, she probably cares because they are family, not because she has an actual relationship with either one.
It could be the narrative just hasn’t broached this topic, yet, but I did note how the same narrative took time to highlight who Jasnah had a strong relationship with.
On Moash: Those thoughts are myself building up on the character based on what we know. I find them a plausible narrative for his character, but granted Brandon could still pull the rug under our feet and take another path entirely, much like he did with Amaram. I am glad you enjoyed them even if you don’t agree with all of them.
@24 RogerPavelle
Very interesting theory, but I do not believe the abstract concept of honor attracts “honor particles”. True each magic system is unique, but they all work on fundamental underlining rules regarding investiture and the manipulation of that investiture. If acting honorable would result in restoring a blade by gathering honor particles, then why wouldn’t the radiants naturally become stronger the more honorable they become? Now one could argue that that is how the progression of oaths actually works, but if that was the case, then it would not matter how your honorableness manifests (unconnected with the interpretation of the oath). That would mean an elsecaller could act like a windrunner and still advance in the oaths of an elsecaller despite not swearing the oaths an elsecaller swears. That is why I personally do not think it functions the way you posit. Having said all that, I still find it a very interesting way to look at things.
@25 BenW
I do not think you have to define the difference between internal and external honor, but feel free to expound on how you feel it manifests differently from order to order.
@26 aggie1
That is a very good point. At the end of the day, Moash didn’t fight to preserve the very parshmen he took under his wing. He focused on revenge with Elhokar. That dichodomy would support the mirroring of Kaladin and Moash. Where Kaladin wanted to protect everyone in that moment, Moash only wanted to kill. Whereas Kaladin was frozen with indecision, Moash acted decisively.
@27 AndrewHB
Thank you and I agree completely. Shallan does remark on how with the change in the room, something big must have happened to upset the entire dynamic.
Words of Radiance page 442
“The room seemed oriented so that all eyes were on those two factions. The king and Dalinar against Sadeas, Ruthar, and Alada. Obviously, the political alignments had changed since Jasnah made her notes.“
I will also point out that as you said Jasnah’s notes on Sadeas, Ialai, Ruthar, Roion, and Hatham were all accurate. The only thing in fact Jasnah’s notes were wrong about were the direct alliances, which is confirmed in the book was because of the Tower which occurred while Jasnah was gone, and Sebarial who successfully fooled all the other highprinces, Dalinar, Elhokar, Navani, and Adolin. So I do not believe Jasnah’s notes being out of date has anything to do with her political skills. I will add the additional quotes on the accuracy of Jasnah’s notes momentarily.
Words of Radiance page 441
“Highprince Sebarial, Shallan thought. Jasnah’s notes dismissed him as obnoxious and usless.”
(inaccurate)
“She’d had kinder words even for Highprince Sadeas, whom she had noted was not to be trusted”
(accurate)
“Ialai, was a slender-necked woman with thick lips, large bust, and a wide mouth. Jasnah had noted that she was as shrewd as her husband.”
(accurate)
Words of Radiance page 442
“One was Aladar, a renowned duelist. The short man was listed in Jasnah’s notes as a powerful highprince, fond of taking risks, known to gamble in the type of games of random chance that the devotaries forbade. He and Sadeas seemed to be on very friendly terms., Weren’t they enemies? She’d read that they often squabbled over lands. Well, that was obviously a broken stone, for they seemed united as they regarded Dalinar.”
(accurate on temperament, inaccurate on alliance due to the Tower)
“Joining them were Highprince Ruthar and his wife. Jasnah considered them to be little more than thieves, but warned that the pair were dangerous and opportunistic”
(accurate)
Words of Radiance page 443
“He is murdering princes and kings across the world! Roion added. The man looked like a turtle to Shallan, with those hunched shoulders and that balding head. What had Jasnah said about him…” That he’s a coward, Shallan thought. He always chooses the safe option”
(accurate, at least till later when inspired by Dalinar, he switches sides. Much to Dalinar and Sadeas’s surprise)
As Carl mentioned later, I was responding to the earlier posting mentioning the refounding of radiants specifically. Now there is a theory that Taln will bond a stoneward spren like Nale bonded a skybreaker spren, but so far we do not know.
@28 Bellaberry
Very true
@29 EvilMonkey
I agree on all points
@30 Carl
Thank you
Concerning the Desolations, there is a new WoB that there were more than 15, but less than 50:
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10816
We also have the evidence of Dalinar’s vision with Nohadon – where the prior Desolation had happened so long ago that the people forgot who the Heralds were – so definitely many centuries, but a couple of Desolations in at least, because the spren, who, as we know, don’t change quickly or easily, have figured out the Nahel bond shortly before that one hit.
And the Natanatan vision with the Midnight Essences, which happens in the year 322 (IIRC) of the 8th Epoch – and given how their termed _Heraldic_ epochs, it only makes sense that they begin and end with the appearance of the same.
I think that not only the Heralds’ souls can be spotted “on the other side”, but also those of the incipient Radiants, and it is fairly likely that that’s how Nale managed to get the intel on the rough locations of his targets, but not their identities, which he had to learn by good old sleuthing. This also plays into Radiancy by proximity that Sanderson mentioned a few times in his WoBs – i.e. that when somebody bonds a spren then other Nahel spren are likely to watch them and people around them, therefore raising the chances of somebody compatible in the Radiant’s orbit to be picked as well. I also strongly suspect that there are ways to hide this, which most/all other Heralds employ. Shallan’s aluminium necklace might have been such protection, for instance.
Poor Jez, of course, was too far gone to employ something like that… and possibly also indiscreet enough that, say, Aesudan could have recognized him and fingered him for Odium’s servants before her demise.
Sigh, I come again to the fact that as a caravaneer Moash has to be aware that things are different in countries futher west – though, humans being humans, not perfect, of course. Still, if he hated it so much in Alethkar, he could have left. And well, it is very clear that most lighteyes are not set up as “gods”, but have to work for the living. They do have certain priviliges, but intermarriage is possible, so it isn’t like in too many RL societies… And yea, grandparents encouraging him to join the caravans “to give him something productive to do.” is, indeed frought with meaning, but also demonstrates that Moash had the luxury of picking and chosing an occupation that would fit him. I have to wonder again what happened to his grandparents’ inheritance. Roshone was exiled and stripped of most of his assets – surely the possessions of his victims, if confiscated, would have been returned at the very least. Silversmiths didn’t tend to be poor iRL.
And, of course, Aggie1 @26 points out something about Moash that I also wanted to highlight – he didn’t actually care about the parshmen whom he took under his wing as people. He helped them in order to sustain his own illusions about the new world order.
As to Kal, he does bear some responsibility for the fate of the poor parshmen – he chose to leave in a very flamboyant way, instead of escaping circumspectly. I mean, he knew that Odium’s side are supposed to be evil – it should have occurred to him that his companions would suffer once his identity as a Radiant was revealed.
I too am not sure why Ivory says that all the 10 Orders are back, when, at this point, the Willshaper and Stoneward spren seem to remain intransigent.
@33 Isilel
All very interesting information and insights into the function of souls being seen from the cognitive realm being Nale’s tracking ability, the possibility of aluminum shielding it, Moash’s options of seeing other cultures (though it could be argued that the caravaning he did was limited to Alethkar. Not sure if it was stated in favor of either possibility), as well as the presumed income his grandparents had. I would add regarding the grandparents income that they had to be doing at least somewhat decently to be considered competition to a lighteyes with the King’s ear. So Moash was not necessarily poor while living with his grandparents. As to Ivory, it could be there are Willshapers and Stonewards popping up that we haven’t met yet.
@32 Scath
Maybe I am not totally clear on how Shards actually function, but I have assumed that the influence of the Shard manifests itself, to some extent, in the form of the abstract concept that shares its name. So, some of Honor’s influence is shown by people acting with honor. This isn’t necessarily Investiture, but it is an gain (maybe just because people respect honorable people).
Next, what happens when a Shard dies and is splintered? Since the Shard is not creating a sentient splinter (such as the Stormfather), the influence of the Shard is still present on Roshar, but in an unguided way. To me, this influence would manifest in the more abstract way of people being honorable (call it gathering “honor particles” if you want). Dalinar follows the Codes (and, while he is mocked, he is also respected). Taravangian tries to save the world (he, at least, thinks he is doing the right thing, and he does fund the hospitals and library). Lift supports Gawx, to the point of sacrificing herself (in WoR). Szeth’s entire arc is based on how he has tried to behave honorably. Kaladin is Kaladin. Adolin duels.
Now that you mention it, I do like the idea that the progression of oaths is how the increased influence of Honor is manifested. However, I think you are discounting the influence of the Radiant’s spren. I don’t think an elsecaller could act like a windrunner because their spren wouldn’t accept or allow that. Kaladin and Shallan speak different oaths because Syl and Pattern require them (and wouldn’t accept others).
The difference here, though , is that Maya is dead, caused by the severing of the Nahel Bond by her last Radiant partner. Based on the upcoming chapters, it seems that Adolin is somehow rebuilding/recreating that bond with Maya. We’ve been told that such a thing is impossible, or, at least, unprecedented. So, the question is raised of how this can be done. We know that Adolin has gained honor as the champion duelist and personally shares those victories with Maya (based on his pre-duel meditations). That’s the only difference we know of between those two and anyone else who has used a shardblade (the closest example we have is when Dalinar acting honorably by giving up Oathbringer means that she doesn’t scream in his head when he picks her up). So, I speculate that the bond is being rebuilt by Adolin sharing honor with Maya. Not Investiture per se, but Shardic empowerment on a tiny, slow scale.
@35 RogerPavelle
I think what you are discussing here is Connection, which is an attribute with strong meaning in the cosmere. The reason bonding a human is worthwhile to spren is that the Connection it forms allows the spren to be intelligent in the physical realm, which is an interesting, exotic place for them. What Adolin has been doing is rebuilding the Connection that this spren once had to the physical realm via their last bonded human, the difficulty seems to be in undoing the damage the broken oaths caused, which I presume would allow Maya to manifest in the physical in her spren form and create a proper bond. Adolin’s building of Connection with Maya seems to providing her greater and greater degrees of sentience, but I still think there has to be some extraordinary event that needs to take place to properly revive Maya. However, without Adolin having nurtured that Connection (what you are referring to as ‘gathering honor’) there would not have been any chance for Maya to revive.
@32 Interesting. a few more things to point out. I asuspect that if Jasnah IS on the spectrum she is more akin to Where Steris is, but that she reacted in a differnt way. To use a quote from my favorite source.
“They may not have the same empathic connection to the world as you do, but they sure are good at working out how other people think (partly because they had to put so much more effort into working it out in their youth; talent is cheap).
Maybe the reason Jasnah is so good at working it out is because she she had to out a lot of effort into it as a kid? Yet at the same time she lacks the natural talent at doing such a thing that Shallan does?
Also about internal honer vs external honer if you take a lok at the diagram of the knight radiant. I am thinking maybe the orders at the bottom and their oaths (The light weavers and the edgedancers) hold closer to internal honor while the one at the top hold (The Windrunners and the Stone Wards) are closer to external honor. I basically found this thread here Analysis of Knights Radiant Graph and had my own interpretation of it.
@35 RogerPavelle
Could you explain for me what you mean by a “gain” from people acting with honor? So I can understand better. What is being gained?
Thing is Stormfather merged with Tanavast’s cognitive shadow, so Honor the shard is being guided. The spren being splinters of honor were made intentionally. They were not formed from his shattering. Are you saying because Honor was shattered, people act more honorably because its “essence” pervades more than it would had it been focused? Sorry for all the questions, just trying to wrap my mind around your theory.
But that is my point. If by acting honorable in general, you increase in…I don’t know what because I need you to define that gain earlier in your post, then why would it matter what the spren thinks? The spren couldn’t stop it, because it is occurring just by being honorable, and there are clearly multiple ways to be honorable as their are multiple orders each with their own interpretations of what it means to be honorable.
One thing to clarify about dead sprenblades. The radiant didn’t cleanly sever the bond. That is something the radiant and the spren could decide to do mutually up until a certain oath. What happened to Maya is the Radiant ripped the bond out of her skull, taking parts of her brain with it. Sorry for the goriness but that is how Brandon described it. However if things function as you posit, then I could see this gain of…..(honor?) based on how you describe it rebuilding what was lost in order for Adolin to then restore the bond. Thing is, I do not agree with you on that is how it works, though most of the disagreement involves me not understanding your terms and how you are using them.
@36 Ulim
Agree on all points and well said.
@37 BenW
Hmmmm, could be. I wasn’t saying Jasnah isn’t potentially autistic. Just regarding the reason for the notes being out of date. She is very research orientated, and focused on using the history as a guide in the present, so that could very well be.
As to your link I will need to read it before I comment. Will get back to you.
edit: my one disagreement off the top of my head regarding inner honor vs external honor in view of the radiant chart is the skybreakers hold to laws (external) while windrunners hold to what they feel is right (internal) which would be contrary to the set up you posit. Elscallers seem to be logic and research driven (external) while by what you posit, they should be internal. Though much of what I say would be up to interpretation. What are your thoughts on that?
Bit on “Jasnah’s madness” from someone on the spectrum:
@@.-@, Gepeto
This probably sounds cruel, but if I am in an autism-related buffer overflow, locking me into a dark room and letting my scream myself out is exactly what I want. Perhaps it was meant as a kindness.
We do not know what caused the “madness”. (More below)
@13, Carl
Her family “seems” to have forgotten Jasnah’s illness. I suspect they’re just avoiding talking about a period of insanity to avoid making her feel bad, they clearly haven’t really forgotten (since Dalinar and Navani talk about it).
At one point, I must have been 7 or 8, I realized that nostrils were utterly repugnant. There was nothing I hated more than nostrils. When I had to talk to people who were taller than me I took great pains so that I wouldn’t have to see those in their faces. My own were all right, because I couldn’t see them, but if an evil genie had asked me if I would wish all nostrils to go away forever, I would have gladly agreed (and not cared that humanity would have trouble breathing).
I kept it secret because I knew that no one would understand, and nothing could be done about it anyway, and if I had mentioned it, people would have questioned my sanity.
That’s one of my theories about this particular episode. Perhaps it wasn’t nostrils. Perhaps it was breathing sounds, or her own heartbeat. Perhaps she had to scream to drown it out.
Or maybe she saw Spren, and those freaked her out. Being on the spectrum gets easier with practice (I am no longer as quickly overloaded as I was as child), but I can imagine that seeing a Cryptic would probably fill up the impressions that one can filter for a week!
@14, BenW
That’s actually a problem of people on the spectrum. I keep thinking that I had communicated stuff at work and people _knew_, and when I looked through my mails, I hadn’t written it and it was all in my head. It’s super-annoying!
@39 manavortex
To better understand, as someone on the spectrum, you stated that locking you in a dark room and letting you scream would be desirable. So doing so would be beneficial and help you? I am wondering, would you recall that dark room fondly as it helped you calm down? Or would the recollection be negative as it is associated with the upset feelings you had prior to entering it? Jasnah seems to recall that room with dread, and felt that was when she couldn’t trust her mind and was insane. If the room would connect with memories of calming down and gaining control, then I am not sure if that room had the same effect on Jasnah as it would have had on you. So perhaps she is not on the spectrum, or if she is on the spectrum, could she have different symptoms?
Apropos of nothing, I hope that conjunctivitis is not an affliction that humans on Roshar suffer. Now that they are in a Desolation and the Voidbringers have returned, it is not a good thing if somebody wakes up one morning and his or her eyes are completely red.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@39: You are echoing part of my thoughts. I was reluctant to post more of my thoughts, with regards to the dark room, as I feared they wouldn’t be well-received. However, since the topic has been breached, here are my additional thoughts.
I am a parent. My children are neurotypical. They aren’t on the spectrum: they are perfectly neurotypical children following the typical growth curve most children follow. Despite this, they do have tantrums. On multiple occasions, they have locked themselves into fits of rage/sadness/anger through a cocktail of emotions they could no longer identify much less control. When this happens, they scream, scream, scream, yell their little throats raw. They might even try to hit me if I try to sooth them which usually ends with myself telling them this is an unacceptable behavior and they need to go in time-out.
Truth is, there isn’t much else to do with a child having a tantrum besides making sure the child is physically safe and making sure you are emotionally available to talk things through once he calms down. Hence, yes, I have lost the count of the number of time I have put either one of my children, in their room, on their bed, closed the door and waited for them to calm down. Of course, their room is NOT a dark room, but as I said above, my children aren’t on the spectrum. They react to punishments in ways you expect children to react to them.
Perhaps this sounds cruel to non-parents, but there is honestly not much else to do when faced with a tantrum. A child locked into a tantrum will not listen to your wise rational arguments, he will just scream until the emotions pass away. And a child who scream, well, screams very loudly. Usually.
Therefore, when I read about Jasnah’s dark room, this is exactly what came to mind. Was she so out-of-control, was she so over-stimulated by her environment, rational well-intentioned adults actually thought the dark room was a good idea? As I said, my children aren’t autistic nor do they have any disabilities which could explain their behavior: they are your average children who do have tantrums perhaps more than other children as both are very strong-willed (and because the apples didn’t fall far from the tree). And yet, I have put them in their room, I have closed the door and this has been an effective method to help them CALM DOWN.
I can however easily imagined how it may be for parents of an autistic child who does not react the same way as others to frustrations, of a child who has a lesser control/understanding of human emotions. I can VERY easily picture how it may be, hence the dark room, I didn’t feel it necessarily implied someone wanted to emotionally hurt Jasnah.
I thought it probably was linked to what is referred to has her “lunacy”. I thought Jasnah likely was out-of-control and the dark room came up as a solution, but it obviously failed. I can however see how adults, in a world not having a clear understanding of neuroatypicallity, might believe putting an over-sensitive child who reacts too strongly to stimulus (as it is often the case with autism, as you have yourself highlighted with your nostrils example) in a dark room would actually help. I mean, if you have an over-sensitive child prone to out-of-control tantrum, wouldn’t you think removing the stimulus such as noise and light is a good idea? Especially if you live in a society which doesn’t encourage physical proximity and frowns on hugs? Granted, reading Jasnah, we know it wasn’t, but I can understand why there might have been people who thought it was.
For the rest, I did love reading your insight on autism. And I do tend to support the theory wanting Jasnah to potentially be on the spectrum
@41 AndrewHB
Well I do not believe the humans on Roshar typically suffer from conjunctivitis as their immune systems are naturally better due to the higher level of investiture pervading their ecosystem. Now I say typically, because that was before the Purelake Plague, aka the common cold from our three world hoppers pursuing Hoid. So it may end up becoming a thing after all lol.
@36, 38
It is obvious that I don’t know enough Cosmere terminology to discuss this at the level that might be required, so, again, forgive me in advance if I get some things wrong or stay confused/confusing. I’ll also state that I’m writing these on fly, so some ideas my not have been totally thought through.
(For convenience of discussion, call this Point A) As I understand it, when Rayse killed Tanavast he splintered the Shard of Honor [Note: do we know when in the timeline this happened? Was it long before, sort of contemporaneous, or after the Recreance?]. This is different than Tanavast creating a sentient Splinter (such as the Stormfather). Tanavast’s cognitive shadow may have merged with the Stormfather after his death, but the Shard itself was not. So, the power of the Shard (or whatever the proper term is) still exists on Roshar. Since that power is not cohesive (shattered/splintered/broken into tiny pieces and scattered throughout the world), that is what I have been referring to as “honor particles”, the metaphoric grains of sand that once made up the Shard of Honor.
(Point B) Back when Tanavast was alive, he (and, presumably, Cultivation) created the mechanism by which people could create Nahel bonds with spren. I don’t know enough about Connection to know if it takes Shardic power or influence to initiate, but it seems reasonable to assume so. If that is correct, then in order to rebuild Maya’s bond, Adolin would somehow have to gain access to this power (which is different from any other bonding we’ve seen since those are apparently initiated by the spren). This is Point B.
(Point C). I vaguely remember from a WoB or in a previous discussion that Shards (as opposed to Shard holders although I understand that is not correct terminology) try to stay coherent. So, the splintered Shard of Honor will slowly try to recreate itself (tied to Point A). As a VERY loose example, take the way Ruin slowly rebuilt himself in the Well of Ascension (totally different circumstances and mechanism, but conceptually what I am trying to express). Point C.
(Point D) Now, my biggest assumption has been that there is a relationship between Honor (the shard) and honor (the concept). The way the Stormfather reacts to oaths and Syl’s near death when Kaladin starts to break his, make me feel confident that there is, on some level, a tie between the shard and the concept.
Here’s where I will try to tie all this back to my previous posts:
If the Shard is trying to recreate itself (point C), one way to attract that power would be to act in a way that is “attractive” to the Shard, in this case by acting honorably (Point D). Perhaps this is why gloryspren show up (the local increase in Honor attracts them – Point A). Adolin, in his pre-duel meditations, specifically talks to Maya and asks her help to win the duel and thereby gain honor. What I am proposing is that the Honor that was accumulated in the duel is slowly building a bond between Adolin and Maya (Point B).
I hope that makes some sense. As I said at the top, I’m thinking and clarifying all this to myself as I type, but to me it works.
@44 RogerPavelle
No problemo, and nothing to apologize for. That is why I asked what you mean. Want to make sure I understand what you are explaining.
Point A, Rayse did kill Tanavast though killing Vessels tends to be slow. As in Tanavast gets “killed”, but his “self” sticks around for awhile, fading. I believe Tanavast was killed after the Recreance as the visions he gives Dalinar are his memories, and he remembered the Recreance happening. Now could he have been dead at that point, and that is why he was acting all wonky when the Recreance came around? Maybe. Could he have been acting all wonky around the Recreance because his intent finally overcame him completely? Maybe. I do not know if we know for sure but I will dig into WoB to check.
Edit so looks like Brandon confirmed it was prior to Tanavast’s death, but he also confirmed what I said that the death is a protracted event
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/171-oathbringer-release-party/#e8144
Brandon has said the Stormfather is sort of a sliver in so far as he holds the power, but not a sliver in so far as he was not once human when he took it up, because it is Tanavast who did and the stormfather merged with that shadow. Now does that mean the Stormfather is holding the shard of honor now or not? Not sure, but I think at the very least through Tanavast’s cognitive shadow, he has some access to it, because Dalinar used that bond to bring the three realms together.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/81-shadows-of-self-newcastle-uk-signing/#e5723
Just for informational purposes, Spren are considered splinters as well.
Point B Spren existed on Roshar prior to the arrival of Honor and Cultivation. Listeners bonded with spren for their forms since before the humans showed up, so that says to me (though not utterly conclusive), that bonding spren existing prior to Honor and Cultivation showing up. I think there is a WoB somewhere but I will have to check.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/81-shadows-of-self-newcastle-uk-signing/#e5723
Point C Certain large concentrations of investiture (of which Shards are included) will try to attach to something sapient. If there is nothing on hand that is sapient, over time and with a dense enough amount of investiture, it will become sapient on its own. This is potentially what is occurring on Sel. What happened with the Well of Ascension was Preservation, and that was the condensation of its power at that place. The Pits of Hathsin are Ruin’s. Each geode is a “mini” well.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/181-stormlight-three-update-4/#e3776
Point D There is a WoB that indicates magic systems and how they function arise from the interaction of the shards and the planet. Adonalsium was present on Roshar prior to Honor and Cultivation. Honor and Cultivation, and later Odium co-opted it.
I do not believe Shards try to recreate themselves, otherwise Rayse’s mission became 100 times harder. But that is my own thought on that.
I think I now have a better understanding of what you are saying. I still disagree, and hopefully my above explanations of mechanics might assist in showing why I feel that way but again, very interesting theory!
I am going to update my prior post with some more WoB. It seems anytime there are more than 3, my post goes away till they can get approved. So hopefully it will reflect soon.
@38 First off no group is either 100% one oure the other and until I see more of their oaths it’s hard to know for sure. But in regard to the laws I have a theroy. I want to point out that laws are often open to interpretation. A new judge can’t overturn precdeint wily nilly of course but as their carrer in law goes on and they come to have more respect for the history of law that comes before them they get better at interpreting it. In America the constitution is often described as a living document. And one thing I have heard said is that the law should be stable but should never stand still. Also as for Elsecallers who deal with logic, my best guess without knowing any of their oaths? It has to be with how they navigate stuff such as logical parodxes. The only reason I am more sure about the Skybreakers is that we have a rough idea of how thier journey works already inscribed to us in Oathbringer.
@39 I could be crazy brat when I was a kid as well. I had bad habits and things that seemd ogical at the time that I realze now were anything but. For example I could think Eye for an eye was logical whereas I now realize that an eye for an eye leaves a whole world blind. At the same time I didn’t always make good choices as friends. And as a result be hurt by people I thought were my friends. I mentioned before the case of someone who chased me around with a board with nail through it and terrified me and as a result I refused to go back to thier house. I also DO have OCD as in certain textures trigger a groos-out factor in me which triggers a compulsive desire to lick the area that touched the thing that grossed me out. (I can’t explain it either.) Well I had one “Friend” who constantly tired to get em to touch his shoes even though they grossed me out. At the time I thought it was fair, (I forget the details) I sort of if I do something he wants, he’ll do something i want. II basically licked myself a LOT after each touching. Looking back at it now I realize I didn’t get much out of it. I got far more stress out of it then relief through what we did together. Which is why I believe we eventually drifted apart. But sticking with them felt logical at the time.
Though looking back at things now and realizing what I brat I could be I wonder if they didn’t also have similar issues to me? Or at least issues of their own, that they need to work through? I honestly don’t know.
As a parent I can totally see how closing a child in a room could be a strategy employed to help the child calm down. That doesn’t seem like something Brandon would do though. Not that he wouldn’t discipline a child but that he wouldn’t resolve a character mystery that way. How would we all feel to be wondering for so long “what was done to Jasnah?” Just to get to the flash backs and have, “oh, she had a tantrum.” None of the other dangling character bits get resolved like that.
It think it might be tied to this comment from TWoKs which doesn’t sound related to tantrum quelling:
@AndrewHB:
We get a strong indication that unlike Wyndle, she was a volunteer for the Nahel Bond, and Adolin feels that she actively wants to fight the Thunderclast. Thinking about it, a Thunderclast is almost an anti-Gardener, isn’t it, destroying the earth and everything else? I wonder what thunderclastspren look like in the Cognitive Realm.
@RogerPavelle:
But that’s exactly what Tanavast did: create a sapient Stormfather to hold most of Honor after he died.
Do we know that Honor was actually splintered? We know Tanavast is dead, but Ati and Leras both died and their Shards did not splinter, because someone (Kelsier, then Vin, then Sazed) was there to hold the Shards. Shards seem to be pretty resilient. Slivers and splinters of a shard can exist without the Shard being “splintered”. Notably, Endowment has many Slivers in the form of the Returned.
People keep saying Tanavast’s Cognitive Shadow merged with Stormfather. That’s incorrect–no Cognitive Shadow is present. Ghosts are Cognitive Shadows. Shades in the Forest of Hell are Cognitive Shadows. If Tanavast was a Cognitive Shadow he would still be holding Honor. Tanavast is just dead.
@Ulim:
We saw one person do this, nearly. Remember, Kaladin was this close [holds fingers 1mm apart] to killing Sylphrena (she had already mostly lost sapience) and revived her by his willingness to take the Third Oath of the Windrunners. That’s why I’m presuming that were Adolin to take Oaths, each one would restore part of what Mayalaran lost. Note also that this would fit perfectly into what Edgedancers swear to, e. g. “Remember those who have been forgotten.” Pay attention, Brandon is very good at foreshadowing: this is what we’ve already seen Adolin doing, as when he defends and befriends the camp whore. I think following Edgedancer oaths (even without knowing it) is precisely what has been partly healing Mayalaran. Doing it with Intent (in the Cosmere sense) would be even more powerful.
@manavortex, just saying: life in general gets easier with practice, to a point. We all come up with coping strategies. I had terrible social anxiety for a period in my youth. As an adult, I spent years as a teacher and professional trainer, a job I still do from time to time. I learned how.
@47: Your experience with friends is something I read happens often with autistic children. Other parents on my parenting facebook page have talked of those issues with their kids. They get played around by other kids taking advantage they do not see the world in the same manner. I definitely something similar could have happened to a younger Jasnah. Everyone has issues. No one is perfect.
A neurotypical kid will have issues too, but they will be different but perhaps easier to understand by other neurotypical individuals.
@48: There are few differences in between putting a modern day child in his room to help him calm down and the “dark room”. No parent I know of would actually close the lights and the door, leaving a screaming child in the dark. When I put my kids into their room because they need this time out they are in a familiar environment and they are surrounded by their favorite blankets and stuffed animals.
What I think is important about Jasnah’s misadventure is the fact the room was dark. Why was it dark? I wouldn’t rule out tantrums, some children are out-of-control. On my local parenting facebook page, there are quite a few families dealing with neuroatypical children. If I have to deal with tantrums, they have to deal with Tantrums. They never know what will make the kid tick off. The kid is not often doing “well”, by “well” I mean being calm and reasonable, the kid has trouble at school or at daycare. It isn’t like my own. Not at all.
Already, we have hints of Jasnah having had what Gavilar referred to as a “lunacy”. That’s word used to define some sort of mental illness, something people in Alethkar couldn’t named. And they put her in a dark room. Grown up Jasnah is a rigid individual who struggles with empathy, with reading emotions on other people. Renarin is autistic. Autism often has a genetic component. Autistic children often are hyper-sensitive. They are prone to impressive tantrums. People wouldn’t know what is wrong with the child, so they might use the word “lunacy” and they might think a room, a very dark one is a good idea.
Hence, the dark room, tantrums and potentially an unknown disease which triggered the “treatment” could all fit together.
The quote with Jasnah indicate something else might have happened, afterwards. If she is on the spectrum, I could see younger Jasnah trusting the wrong people, being too naive because she can’t get the right cues only to be betrayed. After the incident, she turned into a more rational person who trusts only her studies and people from far-away she doesn’t have to meet in person.
@49 Carl
I thought the Stormfather was around long before Tanavast died.
I got that from the 17th Shard: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Tanavast
@RogerPavelle:
Stormfather existed, but was not sapient, before Honor meddled, as I read the narrative. It isn’t stated that I remember but I think Adonalsium created the Stormfather when making Roshar. We know the Singers and the Highstorm predate the Shattering.
Do we know the Shard is splintered from the narrative? Because Stormfather himself explains things to Kaladin in a way that makes me think Honor is not (or not completely) shattered, just Tanavast killed. Tanavast had millennia to prepare for and fight his battle with Odium, I can see him having a good strategy. (Note also the presence of endowment (the phenomenon), as Tanavast “wills” his power to Stormfather. Conspiracy by the other Shards to defeat Odium?)
@carl
The Stormfather has said he is not “God”, meaning he is not Honor. I am fairly confident this means he does not have the Shard or even a significant portion of its power.
I don’t know from the narrative if the Shard is splintered, but in some ways it doesn’t matter to my above comments. If the Shard is (mostly) whole but unguided, that power still exists in the world and can possibly be influenced by actions like Adolin’s meditations/duels.
@RogerPavelle
Honor gave power to the Stormfather as he was dying. The Stormfather would be just a Splinter if not for Tanavast giving him more power (to create spren, for example). Because Tanavast then died, while holding or can hold more power than a normal Splinter, I think he becomes sort of a cognitive shadow. That’s why Dalinar has access to new powers that the old Bondsmiths didn’t have.
As for the rest, as far as we know there is no way to “attract” a Shard. You have to be there to gather the power, ie Vin, Kelsier and Sazed in Mistborn. We also have the seons from Elantris on what can happen when you leave power lying around. Not one of Elantrians, as far as we know, has managed to pick up the pieces of Devotion.
@54 Keyblazing
The question/issue is that no one on Roshar has actually gathered the power/become the new Shard of Honor. So, what happens to it? Does it dissipate into the atmosphere (i.e. become “honor particles”)? Does it remain whole, but searching for a new Shardholder (which means people must do something to “attract” its attention/power)? Does it just sit wherever it is until someone (like Hoid or Cultivation) picks it up? Does something else happen?
My speculations have been based on either of the first two of those options.
@RogerPavelle,
I think there’s a WoB where he says a couple of different things could happen. It’s not set in stone. The one example that we have though is that the seons were created after the Splintering of Devotion, somehow. They are splinters of Devotion, created after Aona was killed by Odium (supposedly) so they were “power” that was just left around. The Seons are probably the closest example to spren that we have, too.
I for one have been assuming the Skaze are splinters of Dominion, direct parallels to the Seons. I don’t know that, it’s just where my mind went when I read Elantris and later learned more about the Cosmere’s underpinnings.
I think the reason I’ve been arguing against the Words of Brandon in this discussion just became clear to me: I know I’ll never see Brandon’s ending. I’ll be long dead at best. So my mind is trying to fill in an ending of my own, because stories need endings.
@Carl
The Skaze are splinters of Dominion. That’s correct.
As for the Stormfather stuff, you’re not incorrect. Here are the unconfirmed WOBs:
WOB 1
WOB 2
WOB 3
Carl @52:
Surely, the Stormfather had to have been sapient before whatever Honor did to him, to make him his “shadow” – sapience is the requirement for the Nahel spren, after all, and he would have been bonded with dozens of Bondsmiths prior to his change.
I have to say, that the whole thing with Stormfather being Honor’s cognitive shadow never sat well with me, because he is like no other cognitive shadow that we have ever seen and his personality is very different from that of Honor seen in Dalinar’s vision. Not to mention that Honor displacing another mind would make him too much like a Fused. Would SF containing the pre-recorded visions be enough to qualify as cognitive shadow, when in every other case the original personality is also preserved? Or is Honor’s cognitive shadow hidden within the Stormfather’s consciousness, somehow, like a sleeper personality, which only emerges very occasionally, without SF’s knowledge and/or might show up more as Dalinar progresses further? I presume that this was done so that Odium could be lulled into letting the splinters of Honor be, as he told Dalinar when they met, rather than cause him to immediately concentrate on destroying the last vestige of his enemy.
And that’s the reason why most of us think that Honor had been splintered by Odium – because the latter spoke of letting those splinters be and then changing his mind. Also, it is much easier to pick up a whole Shard, as we have seen. The fact that nobody did at the time of Honor’s death or later suggests to me that the Shard’s power _was_ forcibly splinetered and that it will be tricky to put it back together.
Crazy thought. The big problem with Rayse is that he embraces his shards inten. That being hatred. What if, hypothetically speaking, the person who had it hated one thing and one thing only HATRED itself yet was THEORETICALLY capable of being compassionate to all else? I know this may sound crazy and I am NOT arguing that we have NECESSARILY seen such a character I am just trying to think about the POSSIBILITY of such a character. For example think of Scar from Fullmetal Alchemist Abridged. That being said I have my doubts about Moash being such a character (at least at this point, because he seems to have given up thinking for himself, but you never know) but I wonder IF such a character could be in store for us.
@Isilel:
Two different events happened. When Honor and Cultivation reached Roshar, I contend that Stormfather was not sapient, and that furthermore no Nahel bonds existed. H&C did something on arrival that changed things, after the Shattering of Adonalsium. Then later, when he was planning for his death, Tanavast put a big fraction of his power and role into Stormfather.
@carl,
Before H&C arrived on Roshar, the Stormfather didn’t exist. Highstorms existed, yes, but they’ve changed over time – likely the introduction of the stormlight. As soon as Honor intentionally splintered himself to create the Stormfather, he would have been sentient. By “definition,” a Splinter is self-aware.
Carl @61:
Well, of course the Nahel bonds didn’t exist when H&C first came to Roshar – we have it on Nahadon’s and Taln’s authority that the spren only invented it after the Oathpact and a few Desolations.
It is an interesting question whether any spren had been sapient before the Shards came to settle on the planet – but by the time the Nahel bonds came into being the spren capable of them had to be sapient – including the Stormfather. And he subsequently bonded a number of Bondsmiths before being re-worked by dying Honor.
Keyblazing @62:
We actually don’t know if the Stormfather and other large spren post-date the Shattering and arrival of the Shards or not. And since most of indigenous life on Roshar has and is dependant on the gemhearts and investiture trapped in them, I am not sure that we can assume that stormlight didn’t exist in some form back in Adonalsium’s day either.
The only ones I would feel comfortable saying did not exist before the Shards came are Honorspren and Cultivationspren. I would guess the others already existed, but were possibly changed by the Shards.
BTW, do we know what types of spren bond with each order of Knights Radiant? For instance, what is Wyndle?
@57 Carl
I too will probably not live to see the end of the Stormlight Archives, and it makes me very sad sometimes. I plan to go as far as possible with it, though. Maybe at some point I’ll make up an ending/resolution of my own as well (which I will keep entirely to myself), just for the sake of peace of mind. So I totally get where you’re coming from. It’s actually one of the great things about Brandon – how he sees readers as kind of co-creators, so that we each in our thoughts and imaginations create the story with him, & each of our “endings” are legitimized in a way that’s personal to us alone.
@RogerPavelle, Wyndle is a Cultivationspren. Thus his being a gardener, right?
@65: Brandon Sanderson is not only opened for his readers to make up their own satisfying ending, he has no qualms in having his readers come up with their own personal interpretation of the narrative. Even better, he encourages his readers to take what he has written and to adapt it to befit their personal preferences. Hence, even if Shallan is not bisexual, it pleases him if readers want to read her a such within the existing narrative. He did also say there were more than one way to interpret/analyse Adolin’s character while using the released narrative.
So feel free to make up your own satisfying narrative at any time you feel is suitable.
@66: As far as we can tell, some of the Cultivation sprens are Gardeners, but not all of them are. Hence, considering the fact Maya seems very different from Wyndle (a known Gardener) in her approaches towards fighting (she is not a pacifist, she wants to fight whereas Wyndle doesn’t want to), it seems logical to think, while being a Cultiationspren, she isn’t a Gardener.
I wonder if the difference between Maya and Wyndle might be generational. Wyndle grew up knowing that all of the warrior Cultivationspren died. Maya grew up in a time when being a warrior was quite common.
@47 BenW
So the law tries to be as general as possible to cover as many situations as possible. Case law is when the general law is narrowed to apply to unique circumstances. That sets precedent that can then be used to apply to future cases. So for example in probate law, there was a situation where the male spouse had children from a prior marriage, while the female spouse had children from a prior marriage. The couple set up their will that whoever survives, gets everything. Then by extension, that spouse’s children, when the spouse died would get everything, leaving the other spouse’s children out high and dry. Seems pretty cut and dry right? Except both spouses died in a plane crash. What do you do now? They died together, so who gets the money? They children of both spouses actually went through the trouble of forensics to find out one spouse died of smoke inhalation while the other burned to death, which allowed them to determine one spouse lived for like 2 minutes longer than the other. That would mean the spouse’s family that lived 2 minutes longer would get everything. The judge ruled that in cases where the time of decease is so close, that the assets will be split evenly to both parties to avoid such issues in the future (what if no one was present? what if the time of death was off by 1 second, and two doctors disagree? and so on). That is case law. I give this example to in my mind illustrate how law and precedent is external. The judge takes laws that were thought of and constructed externally to apply to all people in all cases, and applies them as applicable. In the event such laws do not apply, or the scenario is particularly unique, then the judge applies external logic and reasoning to rule case law. That case law sets a precedent that then later judges use and so on. So based on my own understanding of internal and external honor, I do not feel it applies to the surgebinding chart. But I respect your theory and thoughts on it.
@48 Bellaberry
I agree
@49 Carl
I need to check for a WoB to be sure, (which I seem to have to be careful about because if I post too many, apparently my posts are never approved for some reason, which I will comment on in another post) but I believe the Stormfather predated Honor and Cultivation’s arrival. I do not believe the Stormfather picking up Tanavast’s cognitive shadow was something Tanavast did on purpose, or was originally intended to happen. I think it sort of just happened.
We have WoB confirming that that is what happened. The stormfather merged with tanavast’s cognitive shadow. Tanavast was a living being once that took up a shard. The more investiture you hold, the longer you stick around when you die before you go to the Beyond. Thats why shard death tends to be “slow”. But Tanavast most definitely made a cognitive shadow that the stormfather merged with. I will attempt to add the WoB later and it will hopefully not make my post vanish.
The difference to Syl is he “killed” her prior to her fully being capable of physical form on the physical realm. So all Syl lost was the sapience she gained from her bond with Kaladin. Had he been oathed to her to the point where he had a shardblade, she would have been locked in that form. Also Kaladin is the actual knight that swore the oaths. If Maya’s original knight was still around, to restore the oaths then that would be possible. As it stands now, Adolin restoring Maya is seen as impossible because the bond that was between that knight and maya does not exist between Adolin and Maya. What they have is a basic connection, but there are still “chunks” missing from her head that need to be restored. That is why although I do feel Adolin needs to personally swear the ideals of the edgedancers to strengthen that connection, I still feel something extra, or external needs to be done to help fix what got literally torn out of Maya’s skull. As far as I am concerned, if you rip out a wall socket, you are not going to be able to plug your computer into the wall. You could use the stripped wires to attach to the prongs of your computer cable, and maybe get some electricity, but most of the power is going to be lost without proper insulation and instillation.
@51 RogerPavelle
Yes we have confirmation via WoB that Tanavast died, and Honor was splintered. I will find the WoB and post it somehow.
@53 RogerPavelle
The stormfather does not fully know what he is. I mentioned WoB in the post that never got posted up that support this. The stormfather is not “god” because tanavast himself is dead. The Stormfather is merged with the cognitive shadow. So he is not actually Tanavast, but he has access to it. I hope by in a later post calling attention to how my informative WoB post still isn’t reflecting, will get it to be finally approved 4 to 5 days later.
@54 Keyblazing
The stormfather is a sliver without being a sliver. He is a sliver because he merged with the cognitive shadow of Tanavast who would be considered a sliver. But the stormfather himself alone is a splinter because he cannot be a sliver since he was never a “human” being that held the power. So by merging with Tanavast the stormfather is kind of both. I posted a WoB, but for some reason that post was not approved, so hopefully now it soon will be.
@55 RogerPavelle
The Stormfather is looking after it because he merged with Tanavast’s cognitive shadow.
@56 Keyblazing
Yes Seons are analogous to spren. The only difference is as you said, seons were made unintentionally, while spren were made intentionally.
@57 Carl
Yes Skaze are splinters of dominion. However the power that is the Dor is devotion and dominion merged into one giant plasma ocean of death in the cognitive realm which prevents someone from picking it up as a vessel.
@59 Isilel
Sapience in the physical realm is gained through the nahel bond, but it seems higher spren are sapient in the cognitive realm regardless of bond, so I agree in all likelihood, the Stormfather was sapient before he merged with Tanavast’s cognitive shadow. However the stormfather having sapience is not why he was able to merge with Tanavast’s cognitive shadow.
Tanavast’s cognitive shadow did not over take the Stormfather. They became one. Tanavast is also the cognitive shadow of a vessel of a shard. The rules are going to be slightly more unique when you have that much investiture.
Honor is splintered, but through merging with tanavast’s cognitive shadow, the Stormfather has guided the power much to Odium’s surprise. Will get WoB for that too if I am able to include it and still be able to post this.
@61 Carl
Bonds existed on Roshar predating Honor and Cultivation. The listeners confirmed via WoB existed on Roshar prior to Honor and Cultivation. They were made directly by Adonalsium. Their whole ecology works on bonds with spren. So it all existed before Honor and Cultivation popped in and co-opted the investiture. I will agree however that nahel bonds did not exist yet as such bonds are exclusive to the knights radiant who had not existed then.
@62 Keyblazing
The parshendi knew of the stormfather that would watch over them while they would undergo transformations which is apart of their natural biology which they had since their creation by adonalsium. So the stormfather was sapient due to the listeners, which is before Honor and Cultivation.
@63 Isilel
Spren were sapient, just bonding the listeners did not allow the spren to gain sapience in the physical realm.
Stormlight has been confirmed via WoB to exist prior to Honor and Cultivation.
@64 RogerPavelle
Already said why I feel some spren were sapient prior to honor and cultivation popping up.
We do not know what Wyndle’s type of spren are called yet.
@66 Carl
He is a cultivationspren, but I beleive RogerPavelle was asking for a more specific name. So syl is an honorspren. Pattern is a Cryptic. Ivory is an inkspren. Skybreaker spren are highspren. We have not been told for sure whether or not cultivationspren is a catch all term, or one specifically for his order.
Now I would like to make a separate post to ask the Moderators why my post which should be numbered #45 was never approved to show on the page? It has I believe 5 WoB (I cannot check nor edit it at this point). I understand your spam auto hides posts that have over 3 links but as per your site, you state it is regularly checked and approved so it can be posted. I have been patient but it has been 5 days and I am wondering when it will be seen to. Thank you.
edit: I have now also emailed the webmaster email address.
edit 2: I see now my post #45 has been approved. Thank you.
Scath @69 re law vs. precedent. Your explanation does not tell the whole story. You are correct. Situations do exist where the holding of the case (case law) is based solely on the facts of the case that it applies only to the case in front of the court. However, often (and this is especially the case with appellate court decisions) as the holding of the case is not limited to the facts of the case. The holding interprets a law or constitutional provision and such conclusion applies to all future matters involving the law or constitutional provision. This establishes the precedent (at least to the extent of the court’s jurisdiction). For example, if the First Circuit interprets a federal law, that holding is done precedent in a case brought in a different Federal Circuit, even if the facts are the same.
Thanks for reading my musings.
AndrewHB
aka the musespren
@71 AndrewHB
All you said is correct and I am agreement with. However, the reason I elaborated on the process was to illustrate why I view the skybreakers as external honor, which would refute BenW’s theory on how the surgebinding chart is broken down thus explaining why I do not prescribe to his theory. All you wrote in my mind further supports my assertion that the law is an external concept interpreted and applied by the legal system in place. BenW is more then welcome to believe his theory, and I wish him luck with it. I just personally do not, and that is why.
On Cultivationspren: when I mentioned that Wyndle was a gardener, I just meant “… because no occupation could be more about literal ‘cultivation’ than gardening.” The words are synonymous!
@Scáth:
Yes, this is why I wrote “almost” the same thing. On the other hand, Stormfather disagrees with you and thinks Kaladin has killed Sylphrena, for reals.
Well, not literally. She doesn’t have a skull, after all. That’s what we literalists call “metaphorically”.
Sorry, but I own nitpicking.com.
The thing is,we know because we have seen it: Stormlight can heal Spiritweb injuries. It isn’t trivial, and for old wounds you have to be a Knight Radiant (or presumably a Herald), but Brandon is very good at foreshadowing and we see Hobber heal a Shardblade (Honorblade) injury in this very book, which requires fixing the Spiritweb. I see no reason why the same trick could not heal Mayalaran’s Spiritweb. Now, it’s harder than fixing Kaladin’s damage to Syl, but if Adolin were to, say, take the Fifth Oath of the Edgedancers while bound to her, you’d expect some healing, would you not?
Edited to add: especially because the Edgedancers have the Surge of Progression, and their whole raison d’etre is to “remember those who have been forgotten.”
On the Skybreakers: they definitely see the Law, not personal honor, as their goal, except that the highest level (Fifth Oath) they suddenly reverse that and “become the Law.” However, Nale seemingly still follows external law as a Fifth Oath Skybreaker, so … ? We’ll find out eventually.
@AndrewHB:
I’m betting you meant “not” where you (or autocorrect) typed “done”? Or possibly “no”? (I’m nitpicking.com and the son of two lawyers.)
@73 Carl
Lol then it looks like we are both nitpickers. The stormfather knew Syl was still “alive”. He did not want Kaladin to restore the bond because if Kaladin and Syl progressed to oath 3, then her death would be “permanent” if he broke his oaths again, which the Stormfather is convinced he will. The Stormfather did everything he could to convince Kaladin she was dead and gone to keep them separate. She ended up defying the Stormfather when Kaladin renewed his oaths by protecting Elhokar. So I do not think the Stormfather thought Kaladin killed Syl for “reals”. I do not think he out and out lied, but the Stormfather definitely chose how he worded things to try and prevent further bonding between the two. So I do not think Syl “died died” lol for lack of better terminology.
So I say literally got something ripped out of her skull, because that is literally how Brandon described it lol but yes it is a metaphor. I have quoted below
“Yeah. So what you’ve got going on, the spren gain – the bond lets them have sentience in the physical plane, like they can think and all these things, and when that was ripped away from them – imagine…this is a very bad metaphor, it’s the first one coming to my head though, imagine you had wetwear, you had a head-jack or something like that, and someone just ripped it out of your head. Instead of surgically operating it out. Like that’s what’s happened, a piece of their soul’s been ripped off.
It has been stated via WoB, as well as seen in world as impossible to restore a bond when the original knight is dead. If it was merely a case of using stormlight to heal, then it would have happened already. Yet we are told it is seen as impossible repeatedly. That is why I feel there needs to be an external function. Adolin laid the groundwork. I think there needs to be something extra to get him over that final hump, and then the true connection will be restored. I could very well be wrong but personally I feel there is an obstacle that needs to be overcome before full healing is possible.
Well technically in law, the judge is the law. The cops enforce it, the lawyers apply it, and the judge interprets and creates it. It is still an external concept. In my mind at least.
@40, Scath:
Yes, anything that doesn’t bombard me with new impulses is good. Hug me and try to be helpful and I’ll just scream more.
Entirely possible. If, hypothetically, she was on the spectrum and she was, for example, freaked out by her own heartbeat, there would be nothing to distract her from the very thing that drove her screaming. Many people on the spectrum chose a specific impulse to drown out something they don’t want – rocking, singing, scratching…
But we simply don’t have enough information.
@42, Gepeto:
I agree. Trying to intervene just keeps the gyro spinning!
As for touching and hugs, if I’m already out of control because of too many impulses, touching me honestly just makes it worse. I have no idea how a neurotypical person might react to that, but for me, I need to isolate to calm down – like a buffer overflow that needs to be processed first before I can deal with new stuff.
My husband’s son (at that time 12 or so, not blood related to me, but also autistic) had something like that once. “YOU ARE SO LOUD I HATE IT MAKE IT STOP!” <I hand him my builder ear muffs that isolate 130DB> “MY HEART IS SO LOUD I HATE IT MAKE IT STOP!”
But back to Jasnah: Imagine people _thought_ she was being autistically out of control and tried to lock her in a dark room for her to get a grip on herself – where she would be alone, alone but for the small black man with the fluorescent black surface, whom no one but her can see?
@47, BenW:
Sorry, that made me laugh – it’s cute ;)
It’s an adult thing, to wonder if they had similar issues. A child literally wouldn’t.
@50, Gepeto again:
Wasn’t Taln in some sort of Asylum and his room was dark enough for Shallan to hide in the shadows when Amaram came?
@75 manavortex
I guess I ask because Jasnah seems to remember the dark silent room with trepidation, fear and pain. So if it was a place that could help her calm down and feel better, I would think her memories of it would be positive. That is very interesting that something like a heart beat could be overwhelming though I feel like she would remember such a thing with dread (like the tell tale heart for instance) if that was the case. Basically I personally believe Jasnah could or could not be autistic, I totally see both sides of it. I just am not sure if her being autistic is connected to her painful and scarred memories of the dark room. I do appreciate you bringing forward your experiences and it helps me learn more about how Renarin and Jasnah could be functioning.
I feel based on the scene where we first meet Ivory at the death of King Gavilar, that it is the first time Jasnah is meeting him as she seems surprised, and acts like she does not recognize him. She does comment on her shadow pointing the wrong way as “oh not again”. So she could have felt she was having hallucinations of shadows when she was a child and they threw her in because of that. Then again if she is in a dark room, she wouldn’t be able to see her shadow, so she wouldn’t see the hallucination and thereby wouldn’t need to scream in pain. So many questions! Can’t wait to read more about her!
The theory that Jasnah was treated like an insane asylum inmate is because of that reference with Taln. They did keep him in a locked dark room isolated from people.
@manavortex:
The short answer is, “No one way.” “Neurotypical” people aren’t identical, and people in general are very complicated and variable. For instance, it would depend on who is hugging (someone I know and trust, or a stranger?), the exact situation, etc.
It’s none of my business, but your posting made me wonder if you’ve ever tried Temple Grandin’s hug machine. I’m not asking, just mentioning it.
@76, scath:
Yes, if that was the intention, the plan obviously backfired. She didn’t seem very comforted by it, the poor thing.
As I wrote above (something 50-ish), in my case it were nostrils. I would occasionally press my fists againt my eyelids until I saw stars because stars were a lot better than seeing nostrils.
My husband’s son had a similar aversion against feet for a long time, or against hearing people eat. Being directly exposed to the trigger stimulus can send someone on the spectrum into a screaming fit to drown it out. I’m not saying that is exactly what happened, it’s just an example that someone who’s not on the spectrum possibly wouldn’t consider.
I’m totally with you here. Just speculating. I don’t have enough information.
Not to mention real people on the spectrum! <gasps> ;))
It’s what I’m here for. We share, we learn.
@77, Carl:
Yeah, I get that. I was overgeneralizing, apologies. And cheers for the Valdemar reference!
Yes, only that in case of someone on the spectrum, that would still be counterproductive. Familiar hugs would be less counterproductive than stranger hugs, but it’s still adding impulse on top. (Talking of a buffer overflow as opposed to an emotional meltdown.) I can’t think of a single case where a hug actually helped someone, but… I’m by no means representative.
Animals are a great help, though: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eTEhoZh9XCE
Gladly answering – until a minute ago I didn’t know that existed, but it looks great!
I have a weighted blanket, though, about 7kg, and I _love_ it. It totally cured my restless legs!
@78 manavortex
No worries, I understand you are speculating, as am I. That’s what is awesome about the mystery that is Jasnah. So much we don’t know! So much to learn! I can’t wait till her book! :)
Excellent discussion; I’m just (finally) commenting so I can keep this in my conversations.
I did have to chuckle at this, though:
Thank you, Carl!
@75: I would argue there are just as many ways to react for a neurotypical individual as there are…. individuals. Without being neuroatypical, some people are more sensitive to their environment than others. For instance, my daughter likes to wear her anti-noise ear plugs when she does her homework because it helps her concentrate, because hearing her brother playing disturbs her. Individuals on the spectrum aren’t the only ones who can be bothered by loud noise, light and outside stimulus, but it is probably worst for them, more intense, more difficult to understand for other people.
I sometimes struggle to understand why my children behave the way they do and I don’t always know how to react. Sometimes, I don’t react well at all. I have absolutely no trouble imagining how difficult it must be for neurotypical parents to figure out how to best interact with their neuroatypical child. If it is hard for me, how hard is it for them? Probably tenfold.
Hence, I have no issue picturing how Gavilar/Navani might have decided to put Jasnah in a dark room to reign her into control if they thought it would help. The fact Taln’s asylum is using this technique with mentally ill people does lend to believe it might have been thought a good option for Jasnah. I have no issues believing loving parents may make this decision, thinking for the best, but having the child think the opposite.
I certainly will not throw them the first rock here.
As for Jasnah, her “lunacy” definitely wasn’t something she was unable to learn how to control. Well, not eradicate, but at least figure out how to manage enough others would not longer see it. I can easily picture how her “time” within the dark room was enough to have her manage her behavior in ways which made people think the “issue” is no longer there… but we know this isn’t how it works.
I love the idea she met Ivory then, but it seems too long ago for this to have happened.
At this late juncture I don’t have that much else to add so I’ll just throw my thoughts down to get this in my conversations:
Interesting discussion on Moash’s thoughts about being a product of his culture having other parallels. I did find his moment where he saw the parsh getting abused poignant though – whatever is motives or reasoning for writing off humankind, there was something very sad about him at least wanting the parsh to be better. Even if, as others have pointed out, his casting human kind as hopeless is a way for him to deflect responsibility. In a way, it’s another example of how despair can end up being toxic.
I love the Jasnah chapter, and am definitely eager to hear more. In some ways I relate quite a bit to being somebody who can (depending on the context) appear very capable, together, etc – but in my mind things can be a lot different. I am definitely intrigued by the ‘illness/lunacy’ and how much of her personality to date has been formed by that, and the possibility she may also be on the spectrum is fascinating to me (as is the various perspectives offered). She might be, she might not be, and the dark room (and her possible hinted at trauma regarding certain types of men) may all be unrelated to it even if she is. I am really looking forward to eventually learning more about her, whenever that is.
Regarding honor/honor based societies – to me, honor is a virtue when it has to do with being true to your beliefs, being loyal (with discernment), etc. But I can’t stand cultures like the Klingons that are obsessed with duels and shame and honor and vengeance – usually manifested as some kind of physical achievement. To me that’s just pride.
I appreciate all the cosmere discussion, as I also am wondering if the spren were sapient before the Shards (Honor/Cultivation) came to the planet. Every time I think I understand stuff I remember how much I don’t know or have forgotten :)
@82 Lisamarie
I see Moash wants the Parsh to be better to redeem himself. The tragedy is because he still deflects responsibility this redemption he holds in his mind is false. It supports the deflection. Humanity is a lost cause, that’s why I am the way I am. If the parsh are proven to be better, then it proves humanity is at fault, not me personally”. It is very sad to watch, but all the more poignant.
Jasnah awesomeness FTW!
That is what is interesting about the Radiants. They all exemplify their own interpretation of being honorable. Sounds like you would be a good lightweaver, or bondsmiths :)
I believe spren were sapient before honor and cultivation showed up. Radiancy just allows spren to be sapient in the physical realm. They are already sapient in the cognitive realm.
scath @83 – “I believe spren were sapient before honor and cultivation showed up. Radiancy just allows spren to be sapient in the physical realm. They are already sapient in the cognitive realm.”
Some spren are sapient in the Cognitive Realm. Not spren in general. Given that the Singers were created on Roshar by Adonalsium, naturally there were spren there before H&C came, and it’s possible that some of them were sapient. Some were almost certainly sapient (in the Cognitive Realm) before humans arrived, as well, but we can’t prove anything yet about the exact timing.
@84 Wetlandernw
I base that idea on the fact we know the Highstorms preceded the arrival of Honor and Cultivation, and that the Stormfather preceded them as well as he is ingrained in the singer culture when they undergo any transformation during the highstorm. I will need to dig to find if a WoB explicitly states it, but I think the information we have does point to the Stormfather being sapient in the cognitive realm prior to the arrival of honor and cultivation. I did not mean to imply all the spren are sapient in the cognitive realm. I was referring to the “high” spren (i place high in quotes as I believe that is what the skybreaker spren are called, and I cannot recall off the top of my head what the stormfather referred to the sapient spren as). Not all the “high” spren type existed back then, but I think there were some.
@Scáth, Syl refers to the sapient spren as “truespren” and the less-intellectual ones as “subspren”.
@86 Carl
Thanks! I knew there was a term somewhere in the back of my mind :)
So do not have the WoB to back it up yet, but on the 17th shard a poster said they asked Brandon if Jasnah is autistic, and Brandon stated she was not, or at least that was not his intention when he wrote her, though he understands how some can read her that way.
@88 Good to know. I am always willing to admit when I am wrong. Was it you who thought she might be schizophrenic, or was that someone else
@89 BenW
That was me. I felt it would cause hallucinations that made her question her mind and her sanity (which she does mention being utterly terrified of not being able to trust her mind, which made her think back to the dark room). Her folks would have sent her to the ardentia for this madness not realizing how traumatic the procedures of that era is to the patients. In the beginning she trusted a kindly ardent in trying to help her, and perhaps that ardent introduced her into the versitilian order and the book of endless pages. Once the procedures began, she would feel betrayed by the ones she loved, yet still love them because she would realize they did not know what they truly are doing to her. Realizing the only way out would be to “cure” herself, she martialed all her will power and broke down each hallucination based on logic alone. Reasoning through their existence and thus proving their non-existence. For instance, giant burning demon monster in the corner cannot be real because the floor is not in fact being burned, nor any soot stains. Throws a sheet of paper at it, paper does not go up in flame or goes right through hallucination. Then using that, focuses on the hallucination being false. This caused Ivory to take notice of her, and the bond to begin even before he revealed himself or she said the words. This would explain her reaction in the hallway the night of Gavilar’s assassination (when she meets Ivory for the first time, she goes “oh no, not again”), her relationship with Gavilar and Navani (loving her parents but suddenly seeming fully grown up and keeping people at arms length), and her personality of needing to always be in control of herself and her emotions. This of course is completely an opinion, with absolutely nothing in the books nor WoB to back it up. All conjecture on my part, though it would be awesome if it worked out to be true.
@90 That reminds me of a certain film, what was it called again, A Beautiful Mind?
@91 BenW
That was actually a large part of the inspiration. That and the Slender Man documentary about the two young girls who attempted to kill their friend at the “command” of slender man. One of the girls was found to be schizophrenic, and it was revealed that her father was as well. In the interview he spoke about how he sees demons and devils. That he learned how to handle it, but didn’t realize his daughter inherited it from him so hadn’t tried to help her the way he wished he could have. He gave an example of how he would be sitting in the car, and see the devil in the back seat, and he would continually reinforce in his mind that that is not real.
@92 If your idea about Jasnah being scizophrenic is true now I REALLY want to see her interact with Szeth. The dichotomy between the two seems like it would be interesting. ESPECIALLY GIVEN their past experiences and current mindsets.
@91 BenW
From John Nash himself (who the movie A Beautiful Mind was based on)
“I spent times of the order of five to eight months in hospitals in New Jersey, always on an involuntary basis and always attempting a legal argument for release. And it did happen that when I had been long enough hospitalized that I would finally renounce my delusional hypotheses and revert to thinking of myself as a human of more conventional circumstances and return to mathematical research. In these interludes of, as it were, enforced rationality, I did succeed in doing some respectable mathematical research. Thus there came about the research for “Le Probleme de Cauchy pour les equations differentielles d’un fluide general” the idea that Prof Hironaka called “the Nash blowing up transformation”, and those of “Arc Structure of Signuralties” and :Analyticity of Solutions of Implicit Function Problems with Analytic Data” But after my return to the dream like delusional hypotheses in the later 60s I became a person of delusionally influenced thinking but of relatively moderate behaviour and thus tended to avoid hospitalization and the direct attention of psychiatrists. Thus further time passed. Then gradually I began to intellectually reject some of the delusionally influenced lines of thinking which had been characteristic of my orientation. This began, most recognizably with the rejection of politically oriented thinking as essentially a hopeless waste of intellectual effort. So at the present time I seem to be thinking rationally again in the style that is characteristic of scientists”
Also take into account that John Nash was being treated with shock therapy where the goal is to induce temporary comas while injecting high doses of insulin to “shock” the schizophrenia away. I do not imagine that the ardentia would be able to produce shock therapy, but who knows what means they would use, considering the level of medical knowledge and ignorance of the Alethi at that time as we see exhibited by Kaladin and Renarin
@93 BenW
I whole heartily agree. On top of that Brandon has confirmed in WoB that although Jasnah will work with Szeth, there will be friction as he did kill her father.
Just for completeness, the WoB in question got posted. I have copied it below
Questioner
Is Jasnah on the autistic spectrum?
Brandon Sanderson
Jasnah is not, good question. I would not say that she is. Though, you know, I’m not the perfect person at giving diagnoses.
Brandon already has Jasnah as an asexual atheist. Another “a-” characterization would be overkill.
@97 Carl
LOL, well naturally that is totally why Brandon made Shallan an artist, so Jasnah would not be an asexual athiest who is artistic while being autistic. Oh! Who despised apricot jam on afternoons with apple juice. Lol I could go on for awhile.